TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281676: May 28th 2019 at 3:11:10 PM

Generally, my view on Sanders is softer than the average poster here but for different reasons and I don't dispute most of the claims.

My general view on Sanders is that like Warren he's the only other person who understands the fundamentals of the American economy must be changed and it's not an issue you can patch over. The middle class is not where America's money needs to be fixed (or even the super-rich) but thoe below the poverty line that need massive new social safety nets. This needs to be a Green New Deal level of change even if that itself isn't going to fly.

In my opinion, Sanders economics is the only sane and rationale choice but it will fail because of the fact that his arguments also need to take into account that there will be massive attempts at sabotage here. I don't use this word lightly but mean it as Not Hyperbole.

Obama Care is basically the beginning of an idea of what needs to be done for America that the poor can escape poverty (because the society in red states is right now designed to kill them). The Republicans have done their best to kill it and they will do the same with all economic reform because desperate and ignorant voters are the people they try to cultivate.

Minorities also need additional protections by Sanders and his followers. If Sanders can realize that he needs to do "A rising tide will lift all boats and we can make sure Blacks and other minorities don't have people shooting holes in them or they get the shittiest craft" his economics policies would be perfect. The thing is that the Republicans don't just shoot black and Hispanic craft. They very much target poor whites as well. At least in my state.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 3:11:51 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281677: May 28th 2019 at 3:16:13 PM

Exept they voted decisively against their interests with Trump. It was incredibly obvious by the time the election came around that Trump wasn’t going to do anything for those people, so was it “change” or something else?

I fully believe it might have been spite. Bluntly, though I tend to reject the claim that people have to 100% do a thing for one reason. Yes, racism played a massive role in the campaign but I don't dismiss the idea that there are people who voted for Trump because they did believe anything had to be better than the burnt out wastelands that places like Gary, Indiana have become.

There's no reason for the Democrats not to have economic plans that alleviate the situation in economically disastrous state.

Edit:

Here's a map of the counties that flipped from Obama to Trump and thus cost Hillary the election. The pattern is pretty clear around the Great Lakes and Ohio industrial areas. The only places that might conceivably actually believe economics over racism.

https://www.cnbc.com/heres-a-map-of-the-us-counties-that-flipped-to-trump-from-democrats/

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 3:21:14 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#281678: May 28th 2019 at 3:21:48 PM

[up] I’m not sure you can really downplay the role that racism played like that. Economic anxiety or even spite only goes so far with a candidate like Trump, who blatantly was not going to be effective at alleviating the situation. As I said, by the time the election rolled around it was obvious Trump was not going to do a damn thing for those areas. He hasn’t done a damn thing for them. If they were really just looking out for their economic interests they would have voted Democrat.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 28th 2019 at 3:23:20 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281679: May 28th 2019 at 3:22:11 PM

I fully believe it might have been spite. Bluntly, though I tend to reject the claim that people have to 100% do a thing for one reason. Yes, racism played a massive role in the campaign but I don't dismiss the idea that there are people who voted for Trump because they did believe anything had to be better than the burnt out wastelands that places like Gary, Indiana have become.

You can believe what you want, the data disagrees.

Support for Trump was tied to hostile sexism, racism, and high rates of social dominance.

Whether individual people supported him for non-racist reasons is irrelevant, in elections of that size they have no significance when compared to groups.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 28th 2019 at 3:32:37 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#281680: May 28th 2019 at 3:30:21 PM

Obviously none of these statements are going to be 100% true to everyone in any demographic, but trends do exist and the trend in this case was that poor, white people who were genuinely most concerned about the economy voted for Hillary.

If your focus was more about immigrants "taking" over, keeping a woman out of the White House, and feeling White people were losing ground, and things of that nature, they went for Trump. And there are a lot of such people, both poor and working-class, and in other (White) demographics.

Edited by LSBK on May 28th 2019 at 5:40:36 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281681: May 28th 2019 at 3:32:55 PM

[up][tup]

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#281682: May 28th 2019 at 4:23:07 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2019/05/28/day-859/

    Day 859: "False narrative." 
1/ Robert Mueller reportedly drafted a three-count obstruction of justice indictment against Trump before deciding to shelve it. In his new book, Siege: Trump Under Fire, Michael Wolff writes that his findings on the Mueller investigation are "based on internal documents given to me by sources close to the Office of the Special Counsel." According to Wolff, the first count charged Trump with influencing, obstructing or impeding a pending proceeding before a department or agency of the U.S. The second count charged Trump with tampering with a witness, victim or informant, and the third count charged Trump with retaliating against a witness, victim or informant. While the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel says a sitting president cannot be indicted, Wolff obtained a draft memorandum by Mueller's team opposing an expected motion to dismiss the indictment. The special counsel's office denied the claim, saying "The documents that you've described do not exist." (The Guardian / NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/new-michael-wolff-book-says-mueller-drafted-trump-obstruction-indictment-n1010856

Michael Flynn's case could prompt the release of some redacted portions of the Mueller report this week. Judge Emmet Sullivan set a Friday deadline for the Justice Department to make unredacted parts of the report that pertain to Flynn public, as well as transcripts of Flynn's calls with former Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak, and of a voicemail during which someone connected to Trump referenced Flynn's cooperation. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/27/politics/michael-flynn-emmet-sullivan-mueller-report/index.html

2/ A congressional Republican accused Attorney General Bill Barr of intentionally misrepresenting the Mueller report to further Trump's "false narrative" about the investigation. In a 25-post tweetstorm, Rep. Justin Amash alleged that Barr's March 24th letter summarizing Mueller's principal conclusions "selectively quotes and summarizes points in Mueller's report in misleading ways" and as a result "the public and Congress were misled." (Politico / Washington Post / Axios)

https://www.axios.com/justin-amash-bill-barr-mueller-report-impeachment-c627e3f3-4d58-4633-875c-d8efa37231b2.html

📌 Day 851: Michigan Rep. Justin Amash became the first Republican lawmaker to publicly conclude that Trump has committed "impeachable conduct" as president, and that Trump's conduct meets the "threshold for impeachment." In a Twitter thread, Amash said he believes "few members of Congress even read" Mueller's final report, and said the report establishes "multiple examples" of Trump committing obstruction of justice. Amash also accused Attorney General William Barr of intentionally misleading the public. "Contrary to Barr's portrayal," Amash wrote, "Mueller's report reveals that President Trump engaged in specific actions and a pattern of behavior that meet the threshold for impeachment." (CNN / Washington Post)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/18/politics/justin-amash-trump-impeachable-conduct/index.html

Republican senators vowed to quash impeachment against Trump if the House passes articles. Mitch Mc Connell is required to act on articles of impeachment, but has broad authority to set the parameters of a trial. (The Hill)

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/445512-senate-gop-pledges-to-quickly-quash-any-trump-impeachment-charges

3/ The top Democrat on the Senate intelligence committee accused Trump of giving Barr "the right to selectively declassify certain information for purposes of political gain." Sen. Mark Warner asked that the leaders of the nation's spy agencies contact lawmakers if Barr's investigation threatens their work. Last week, Trump gave Barr the power to release classified information related the origins of the FBI's Russia investigation. Trump directed the intelligence community to "quickly and fully cooperate." (Associated Press / Washington Post)

https://apnews.com/d6fbe3f4a870414bb4619927c54ca6fb

📌 Day 855: Trump gave Attorney General William Barr "full and complete authority" to unilaterally declassify government secrets and ordered U.S. intelligence agencies to cooperate with Barr's audit of the Russia investigation. Trump wants Barr to investigate the origins of the Russia investigation and the tactics used by investigators. Trump issued the order just hours after accusing the people who led the investigation of committing treason. Barr has personally met with the heads of U.S. intelligence agencies to discuss his review of the probe. Barr has also said that he believes the Trump campaign was "spied" on. (New York Times / Washington Post / NBC News / CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/23/politics/trump-intel-agencies/index.html

4/ Trump denied that North Korea fired any ballistic missiles or violated the United Nations Security Council resolutions, siding with Kim Jong Un over his national security adviser and Japan's prime minister, Shinzo Abe. Trump said that while "North Korea fired off some small weapons, which disturbed some of my people," he was not "personally" bothered by the missile tests this month. "My people think it could have been a violation," Trump said. "I view it differently." Trump's comments contradicted John Bolton, who had said there was "no doubt" that North Korea had violated the Security Council resolutions by firing short-range ballistic missiles. In response, North Korea called Bolton a "war monger," a "war maniac," and a "human defect," who has a "different mental structure from ordinary people." Trump praised Kim as a "very smart man." (Washington Post / New York Times / Associated Press / NBC News)

https://apnews.com/755967a530af4896989f671cfcf2fd39

📌 Day 841: North Korea's three new missiles have "Russian technology fingerprints all over" them, military experts said. The missiles reportedly bear a resemblance to the Russian-designed Iskander – a short-range, nuclear-capable ballistic missile that has been in the Russian arsenal for more than a decade. (Associated Press)

https://apnews.com/20afeea785634442b8300ba2fab0c002

Trump called Joe Biden a "fool of low I.Q." for calling Kim a dictator and a tyrant. "Kim Jong Un made a statement that Joe Biden is a low IQ individual," Trump said. "He probably is based on his record. I think I agree with him on that." Trump and Kim "agree in their assessment" of Biden, Sarah Huckabee Sanders said. (ABC News / The Hill / New York Times)

https://thehill.com/policy/international/asia-pacific/445638-trump-personally-thinks-lots-of-good-things-will-come-from

5/ Trump claimed a national security "emergency" in order to authorize a multibillion-dollar sale of arms to Saudi Arabia, which bypassed congressional review. The decision to sell over $8 billion worth of weapons to Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Jordan drew condemnation from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, who had been blocking the sales of offensive military equipment to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates for months. Iran views Saudi Arabia as its main rival. Trump added: "I don't think Iran wants to fight, and I certainly don't think they want to fight with us." (NBC News / Washington Post / New York Times / Reuters)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-saudi-arms/defying-congress-trump-sets-8-billion-plus-in-weapons-sales-to-saudi-arabia-uae-idUSKCN1SU25R

Trump denied that the U.S. is "looking for regime change" in Iran, saying "we're looking for no nuclear weapons." Last Friday, Trump ordered "a small number of troops" — about 1,500 — as well as fighter jets to the region. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-says-he-is-not-seeking-regime-change-in-iran/2019/05/27/94d3053a-808d-11e9-933d-7501070ee669_story.html

Iran said it sees no prospect for negotiations with the U.S. a day after Trump said it would be "very smart" of Iran to make a deal regarding its nuclear program. (Reuters)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-iran-nuclear-idUSKCN1SY0JJ

Mike Pence told a group of West Point graduates that it is a "virtual certainty" that they will see combat. "You will lead soldiers in combat," Pence told the 980 graduating cadets. "It will happen. Some of you may even be called upon to serve in this hemisphere." (CBS News)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mike-pence-west-point-graduation-vice-president-says-they-should-expect-to-see-combat-today-2019-05-25/

6/ A federal judge temporarily blocked Trump from diverting $1 billion in Defense Department funds to build parts of his U.S.-Mexico border wall. Trump made an emergency declaration earlier this year to circumvent Congress and reallocate funding from the Defense Department to begin work on the wall. In a 56-page ruling, Judge Haywood Gilliam said Trump couldn't use the funds without congressional approval. The ruling, however, does not prevent the Trump administration from using funds from other sources to build walls or fencing. (The Hill / NPR / CNN)

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/24/726884720/judge-blocks-trump-use-of-emergency-power-to-build-border-barrier-with-military-

A group that raised more than $20 million in donations on Go Fund Me claimed it started building its own border wall on private property. The half-mile stretch of private wall will connect two 21-mile sections of existing fencing. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/27/politics/private-border-wall-gofundme/index.html

    Notables 
House Republicans blocked an attempt to pass a bipartisan disaster aid package for a second time. The move delays $19 billion in emergency relief for states hit by hurricanes, wildfires and flooding. Republicans complained that the bill ignores Trump's request for funding for operations along the U.S.-Mexico border. (Politico / Washington Post / Reuters)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-congress-disaster-idUSKCN1SY22M

Trump's lawyers reached an agreement with the House Intelligence and Financial Services committees to not enforce the subpoenas to Deutsche Bank and Capital One for Trump's financial records for now. In April, Trump sued Deutsche Bank and Capital One to prevent them from supplying information to congressional investigators. According to the filing, "the parties have reached an agreement regarding compliance with and enforcement of the subpoenas during the pendency of Plaintiffs' appeal." (USA Today / CNN / Bloomberg)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/25/politics/trump-house-committee-agreement-stay-subpoena/

A $1 million donation to Trump's inaugural committee is being scrutinized by federal prosecutors in New York who are investigating the committee's finances. Real estate mogul Franklin Haney made the donation seeking regulatory approval and financial support from the government for his bid to acquire the Bellefonte Nuclear Power Plant in Alabama. (Associated Press)

https://www.apnews.com/aa6150f1deef49f3b090d9b7926f8aa9

Trump's transportation secretary still owns shares in a company more than a year after promising to divest them. Elaine Chao owns nearly $400,000 of stock in Vulcan Materials Co., a major supplier of materials for road pavement and other construction projects. Chao promised to sell her shares for a cash payout more than a year ago. (Wall Street Journal / The Hill)

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/445710-report-elaine-chao-still-owns-shares-in-stock-she-promised-to-divest

A Trump HUD official said she may have broken a federal law meant to prevent officials from politicizing their government positions, but even if she did, "I honestly don't care anymore." (Huff Post)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lynne-patton-hud-hatch-act_n_5ceb7136e4b0512156f46dae

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281683: May 28th 2019 at 4:33:34 PM

Obviously none of these statements are going to be 100% true to everyone in any demographic, but trends do exist and the trend in this case was that poor, white people who were genuinely most concerned about the economy voted for Hillary.

Yep, I said that but Democrats act like the rural poor are for Trump.

You can believe what you want, the data disagrees.

Support for Trump was tied to hostile sexism, racism, and high rates of social dominance.

Whether individual people supported him for non-racist reasons is irrelevant, in elections of that size they have no significance when compared to groups.

Actually, I've provided the data as those are Obama Switch counties. The vast majority of people voted for Trump because of racism. But the question is what happens with those areas that were willing to vote for a black man that switched to voting for Trump.

Why?

Both my parents voted for Obama and then they voted for Trump over Hillary.

I'm asking what about THIS specific group of areas that switched. People who say the only reasons are racism strike me as refusing to acknowledge there might be a bigger problem and bluntly are destined to lose against Trump.

I say that with no respect for people who voted for Trump and knowing he would do nothing for the eceonomy.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 4:38:59 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#281684: May 28th 2019 at 4:39:27 PM

Voting for a black man doesn't make you not racist

Oh really when?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281685: May 28th 2019 at 4:41:01 PM

I agree.

So there's absolutely no possibility anyone could possibly vote for Trump other than racism? Even gross ignorance?

Just so we're clear.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 4:42:15 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#281686: May 28th 2019 at 4:42:02 PM

Regardless of the pothole, that feels like strawmanning of the arguments being made here.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281687: May 28th 2019 at 4:43:32 PM

The Sincerity Mode is meant to indicate I'm not trying to. I believe Trump ran on a racist campaigm is a racist and was supported mostly by affluent right racists. I believe the rural poor have been tarred and feathered by his opponents even though they had little to do with his election.

I am, however, deeply concerned about the economically vulnerable and their reasons for voting the way they did in the Rust Belt where Hillary made the shocking decision not to campaign.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 4:44:06 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#281688: May 28th 2019 at 5:04:09 PM

You could argue that those who voted for Trump and have since rebuked and stopped supporting him voted for him out of ignorance.

Anyone who continues to support him to this day, however, is not doing so because of his economic policy.

And if some of those just happen to be poor, rural whites...

Edited by PhysicalStamina on May 28th 2019 at 8:05:54 AM

i'm tired, my friend
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281689: May 28th 2019 at 5:09:51 PM

I'm just saying the problem may not be poor rural whites but rich corporate church whites who profit off the back of the poor rural whites (and minorities and immigrants and all the other victims of Trump).

JUST SAYING.

:)

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#281690: May 28th 2019 at 5:11:47 PM

You can vote for a black man and not a white woman. Bigotry is intersectional. Obama-Trump supporters could have simply thought voting in a woman was a bridge too far.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#281691: May 28th 2019 at 5:18:54 PM

Apparently, the Supreme Court decided on a compromise ruling regarding an Indiana abortion law, which seems to signal that the SCOTUS, or at least 3/5ths of it isn't willing to revisit Roe v. Wade (yet).

Also since intersectionality is mentioned, Vox has an article on it explaining the term's history and why the Right-wing hate it with the fire and fury of a googol suns (course that seems obvious, easily explained as yet another manifestation of the privileged's desire to cling onto their privilege)

Edited by MorningStar1337 on May 28th 2019 at 5:29:23 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281692: May 28th 2019 at 5:31:18 PM

Kavanaugh continues to want to stay out of this.

If only he wasn't the lowest pond scum of humanity, I'd be happy.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#281693: May 28th 2019 at 5:34:41 PM

Well, at least his cowardly nature is currently acting as a force for Good.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#281694: May 28th 2019 at 5:35:18 PM

So with the "Mueller drafted obstruction charges against Trump" thing, anyone else find the particular phrasing of the denial to be interesting?

The special counsel's office denied the claim, saying "The documents that you've described do not exist."

That's not the same as "never existed" or "he never did such a thing" - unless maybe there's a bit of Quote Mining going on there, that could mean that he initially drew up such paperwork, then subsequently shredded it, meaning they no longer exist.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#281695: May 28th 2019 at 6:34:32 PM

@Charles Phipps: I feel dirty talking developing knowingly inefficient projects (which is the problem with rural industry) simply to make jobs and buy votes.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281696: May 28th 2019 at 6:42:46 PM

Useless projects that help people are not useless.

Then again, I was raised on the New Deal being about digging holes and filling them as long as it got people work experience and stuff on their resume as well as paying for their mortgages.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#281697: May 28th 2019 at 6:48:00 PM

The problem is that it's enabling the lie that coal still has a future.

It doesn't.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#281698: May 28th 2019 at 6:53:40 PM

An interesting article looking at Adam Schiff's prosecution of an FBI agent working for the Soviets, and how that turned him into a Russia hawk.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/05/26/adam-schiff-russia-hawk-524-226983?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Edited by Rationalinsanity on May 28th 2019 at 10:55:19 AM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#281699: May 28th 2019 at 7:00:48 PM

[up][up][up]I believe his point is that they won't.

i'm tired, my friend
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#281700: May 28th 2019 at 7:06:28 PM

[up][up]Are there any estimates along the lines of “Yeah, we caught these spies, but there’s probably this many more that we’ll never find”?

My musician page

Total posts: 417,856
Top