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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#281651: May 28th 2019 at 1:26:51 PM

edit: nvm

Edited by PhysicalStamina on May 28th 2019 at 4:35:43 AM

i'm tired, my friend
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#281652: May 28th 2019 at 1:30:41 PM

the wave of prosperity that results would wipe out most of the racism derived from economic competition.

Again, when did Sanders ever say that?

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#281653: May 28th 2019 at 1:32:41 PM

[up][up][up]

By "not a great look", I mean the Politico article shooping Sanders standing next to a money tree. Kind of inadvertently feeds into the Greedy Jew stereotype, albeit inadvertently (much like the "A Chink in the Armor" headline was for referencing an Asian basketball player).

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#281654: May 28th 2019 at 1:35:10 PM

~Forenperser

My understanding of the thread's dislike of Sanders has been that it stems from nice sounding economic policies that fail under scrutiny combined with a frequent and consistent series of gaffes that, while generally not taken as intentionally racist, betray a tone-deafness to the subject that is at least as problematic.

Combine that with the obnoxiousness seen from the worse of the Bernie Bro types and it's not hard to see how opinion of Sanders is low.

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#281655: May 28th 2019 at 1:35:48 PM

I'm fairly certain neither were accidents. But I can't prove that the authors don't believe "the card says 'moops'".

Edited by Oruka on May 28th 2019 at 1:36:21 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#281656: May 28th 2019 at 1:38:32 PM

Aside from the tone deaf stuff, my big problem with Sanders is that he doesn’t seem to have a very solid idea of how he’s going to get where he’s going. There’s a lot of pie-in-the-sky proposals but not a lot of substantial policy.

They should have sent a poet.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#281657: May 28th 2019 at 1:38:46 PM

@Oruka: Sanders has repeatedly blamed the split of poor whites from the Democratic Party on poor messaging and apparent ignorance of their economic issues. It doesn't take a lot of effort to read between the lines that he believes redressing those economic issues would bring many back into the fold. This may or may not be true, and again I don't think he's racist. I think he is woefully misreading their motivations.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#281658: May 28th 2019 at 1:42:31 PM

[up][up]

Which is precisely why I like Warren. She's got a similar set of ideals as Sanders has, but a far more concrete plans for achieving those goals.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#281659: May 28th 2019 at 1:44:55 PM

She Has a Plan™

i'm tired, my friend
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#281660: May 28th 2019 at 1:45:06 PM

In other words, he struggles to understand racism.

Honestly, so do I.

There you go. Apparently people have an insane tendency to maximize favouritism, that is, the difference between how their group is treated vs. how the other group is, over the absolute gain of their group. They'd rather go "look how much of a jerk I've been to the other guys" than "look how much good I did us, nevermind the others". [Tajfel, H. (1970) Experiments in intergroup discrimination. Scientific American 223 (5) pp.96-102.]

Actually I've just demonstrated one of the video's points; I've pathologized a behaviour and a preference I didn't sympathize with, and put it in psychiatric terms.

Edited by Oruka on May 28th 2019 at 1:46:38 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#281661: May 28th 2019 at 1:48:39 PM

[up] You can see that within the left, in the form of competition between different minority interest groups. For example, the LGBT community struggles with infighting between people who are focused on getting rights for gays and lesbians and people who want bi, trans, and various other groups recognized.

It manifests as a sort of self-imposed categorism that divides groups that should be working together, and little illustrates that better than the "Bernie Bros".

Edited by Fighteer on May 28th 2019 at 4:51:58 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#281662: May 28th 2019 at 2:26:19 PM

Y'know, something that might sideswipe votes from poor rural whites in gerrymandered Republican country is some kind of (probably disingenuous) commitment to making rural jobs.

Coal's a dying industry. We know it, politicians on both sides know it, workers in coal country do not fucking want to hear it, and Republicans tout their coal-friendly eco-hating credentials even as the fossil fuel companies race to be at the head of alternative energy. Some kind of roadmap to horribly-inefficient, subsidized industrial development in rural Kentucky might be a solid campaign play for Democrats, possibly something that can replace cheap prison labor with jobs created in former prison communities.

...I feel dirty just writing that, because our Republicans do that kind of shit all the time up here (hi there, Don "Bridge to Nowhere" Young). But we do need solutions for rural communities that don't involve "move to the city and get a job!"

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281663: May 28th 2019 at 2:28:54 PM

Things that Democrats are proposing like rural broadband would help them massively.

But it runs into the old problem that we have always offered solutions, but we've also offered help to minorities and that stops rural people from accepting it.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281664: May 28th 2019 at 2:39:37 PM

Mind you, there's a weird thing among Democrats that they believe the racists are the poor working class and not the rich in rural states. The poor working class are people that Trump CLAIMS elected him but by a large amount are NOT who voted for him. However, a large amount of rhetoric on BOTH sides claims this is the case. As if the idea that somehow wealth and prosperity are linked to prejudice.

There's also the fact that a large amount of rural communities don't have the opportunity to have their votes counted so they get treated as the enemy.

It was one of the reasons that Hillary's economic policies were shameful because they basically were designed to benefit the middle class and doesn't understand the sheer poverty and desperation many people in rural America struggle with.

And these people STILL didn't vote for Trump.

  • They don't get a chance to vote because voting isn't nearby them.
  • They don't get to vote because they're gerrymandered to fuck
  • They don't feel like their vote counts.
  • They are subject to numerous laws to keep them from voting (poor whites without a car are subject to the same license issues)
  • It's done during work days

Y'know, something that might sideswipe votes from poor rural whites in gerrymandered Republican country is some kind of (probably disingenuous) commitment to making rural jobs.

Coal's a dying industry. We know it, politicians on both sides know it, workers in coal country do not fucking want to hear it, and Republicans tout their coal-friendly eco-hating credentials even as the fossil fuel companies race to be at the head of alternative energy. Some kind of roadmap to horribly-inefficient, subsidized industrial development in rural Kentucky might be a solid campaign play for Democrats, possibly something that can replace cheap prison labor with jobs created in former prison communities.

...I feel dirty just writing that, because our Republicans do that kind of shit all the time up here (hi there, Don "Bridge to Nowhere" Young). But we do need solutions for rural communities that don't involve "move to the city and get a job!"

May I ask why you feel dirty talking development for people living paycheck to paycheck or literally struggling to feed their families?

What's with the attitude?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 2:45:21 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281665: May 28th 2019 at 2:46:45 PM

Mind you, there's a weird thing among Democrats that they believe the racists are the poor working class and not the rich in rural states. The poor working class are people that Trump CLAIMS elected him but by a large amount are NOT who voted for him. However, a large amount of rhetoric on BOTH sides claims this is the case. As if the idea that somehow wealth and prosperity are linked to prejudice.

Trump's supporters were affluent, yes, but it would be a mistake to assume that the poor are not racist.

Racism has been a classic tool in Southern society to diffuse Class tension for a reason.

Rural areas are undeniably full of racism.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#281666: May 28th 2019 at 2:48:31 PM

I can say, I know from experience the archetype of the successful Trump voter. Exhibit A: my dad. His position: Chief Financial Officer. I can say that he doesn’t seem to be racist, and seems to have contempt for the poor in general.

My musician page
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281667: May 28th 2019 at 2:49:51 PM

Trump's supporters were affluent, yes, but it would be a mistake to assume that the poor are not racist.

It's also a mistake to assume they are.

Racism has been a classic tool in Southern society to diffuse Class tension for a reason

Rural areas are undeniably full of racism.

It's also one that is I'd argue no more prevalent than in large cities. Trump is from New York and the issues of urban segregation are not exactly minuscule. Frankly, I believe the "Red States are full of ignorant hillbillies" is pretty much dripping with classicist bullshit.

People are in dire need of help in these states and also seem to miss that they're full of minorities too.

Half of Kentucky's struggling poor are minorities and there's a lot of them.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 2:50:34 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281668: May 28th 2019 at 2:50:01 PM

I can say, I know from experience the archetype of the successful Trump voter. Exhibit A: my dad. His position: Chief Financial Officer. I can say that he doesn’t seem to be racist, and seems to have contempt for the poor in general.

So instead of being racist he's classist?

Interesting.

Frankly, I believe the "Red States are full of ignorant hillbillies" is pretty much dripping with classicist bullshit.

If they were not they would not vote for the people who destroy them.

Either they know Republican policies are clear failures or they don't, if they don't then by definition they're ignorant.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 28th 2019 at 2:50:55 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#281669: May 28th 2019 at 2:53:19 PM

Well, I at least can’t conclusively say he’s racist. It doesn’t come up out of nowhere, but in regards to things like people not taking jobs at places like McDonald’s as much nowadays, with them being understaffed, and blaming people who won’t take a job that won’t pay the bills anyway.

My musician page
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#281670: May 28th 2019 at 2:53:31 PM

The way I've heard it described is that Red States and Blue States have different kinds of racism. It's a mistake to assume either is inherently "better" or "worse" than the other.

That's not a defense to try and claim the South is unfairly painted as more racist than it is, just something I think gets overlooked sometimes and should be kept in mind.

Edited by LSBK on May 28th 2019 at 4:53:44 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281671: May 28th 2019 at 2:56:14 PM

The way I've heard it described is that Red States and Blue States have different kinds of racism. It's a mistake to assume either is inherently "better" or "worse" than the other.

That's not a defense to try and claim the South is unfairly painted as more racist than it is, just something I think gets overlooked sometimes and should be kept in mind.

Indeed, I don't think the South is the only racist place.

I just think that the reason that Southern Whites, particularly in rural areas, don't vote Democrat is because of racism. The Southern Strategy was extremely efficacious.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281672: May 28th 2019 at 3:01:57 PM

I think the reason you don't see Southern states vote Democrat is because they literally can't. The poor are denied the right to vote and the Republican parties that rule over them have power that does not depend on popularity but on a monopoly of airtime, name recognition, information control, and denial of alternatives. Propaganda, gerrymandering, voter suppression, and more go into these things more than I think Democrats will acknowledge.

And they acknowledge quite a bit.

For example, Georgia is a state that elected a black woman as governor. That "didn't count."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 3:03:39 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#281673: May 28th 2019 at 3:03:22 PM

Upper middle-class voters form the largest part of the voting public for both Republicans and Democrats, so simply saying they turned out for a candidate isn’t proof that candidate’s election was an upper middle-class phenomenon. Trump swung an appricable number of white, working class voters in 2016. Not enough to decide the election on their own, but enough to point to that group’s support for him.

States like Kentucky show this well enough. Trump won Kentucky by a massive amount, even in Democratic holdouts like Elliott county.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 28th 2019 at 3:07:06 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281674: May 28th 2019 at 3:05:20 PM

Upper middle-class voters form the largest part of the voting public for both Republicans and Democrats, so simply saying they turned out for a candidate isn’t proof that candidate’s election was an upper middle-class phenomenon. Trump swung an appricable number of white, working class voters in 2016. Not enough to decide the election on their own, but enough to point to that group’s support for him.

I don't think it's surprising to find the small group of people who voted for Obama and then Trump are located almost entirely in the Rust Belt—i.e. the formerly affluent and income secure areas of the United States that have become urban hellscapes.

Both Obama and Trump said change and the sheer damage done there cannot be understated.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#281675: May 28th 2019 at 3:08:40 PM

[up] Exept they voted decisively against their interests with Trump. It was incredibly obvious by the time the election came around that Trump wasn’t going to do anything for those people, so was it “change” or something else?

They should have sent a poet.

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