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#281601: May 28th 2019 at 9:37:22 AM

[up][up][up] Not to drift too far off-topic, but I've been watching European politics lately and you'd have a very hard time convincing me that the political center is that much farther left than in the United States, what with so many countries voting themselves conservative governments that want to restrict immigration, adopt hard money policies, and be isolationist.

To be sure, most European nations start out farther to the left by default, since they all have universal healthcare in one form or another and vastly better social safety nets, but what matters is what people are doing now, not what they did last century. The Overton Window is being dragged rightward there, too.

Edited by Fighteer on May 28th 2019 at 12:39:02 PM

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#281602: May 28th 2019 at 9:40:44 AM

This might be more for the general politics thread, but I think there needs to be a global counter to the Murdochs, Sinclair, etc. because it does seem like the increase in right-wing tendencies comes disproportionately from one enterprise, and IMO that’s too much power for anyone, especially someone not in the government.

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TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
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#281603: May 28th 2019 at 9:48:08 AM

In short, it's backlash. Two decades of liberal politics after the end of the Cold War (and in some cases, even before the end of the Cold War) - familiarity has bred contempt.

Sucking up to Neoliberal Policies that impoverished many for the enrichment of the few has not helped matters.

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#281604: May 28th 2019 at 9:55:33 AM

I guess only time can tell if counter-backlash hits this backlash before the damage gets much worse.

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GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
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#281605: May 28th 2019 at 10:01:00 AM

[up][up][up] Well, Soros is paying me for my input, if that answers your question.

[up][up][up][up] Course it is. But we're still further left than the US.

[up][up][up][up][up] Yes, I'll concede that in regards to the Overton Window of different political climates, the Democrats are the left-wing party of America. But people also judge what's left and right-wing by global trends and what different ideologies are and what specific policies they espouse. Hell the past two Democratic Presidents were adherents of the Third Way position, which is more closely aligned with Centrism rather than Leftism.

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#281606: May 28th 2019 at 10:11:31 AM

[up]But even then, Obama is a far cry from Bill Clinton.

Also, isn't the US really far to the right by European standards? Being "further left" than us isn't exactly clearing a high bar. Philip DeFranco is probably "further left" than Ben Shapiro, that doesn't mean he's progressive.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#281607: May 28th 2019 at 10:24:24 AM

A lot of people take "the Democrats are to the right of even conservatives in Europe" as if it's just a fact that needs no further elaboration or support.

I think at least of the points being made is, no, it isn't, and you should actually back it up instead parroting it.

Edited by LSBK on May 28th 2019 at 12:25:34 PM

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#281608: May 28th 2019 at 10:33:06 AM

Yeah the democrats are to broad a tent to easily compare to European political parties, there are democrats to the left of most mainstream European left wing parties and democrats to the right of the most mainstream right wing parties.

On social issues I’d say that some democrats like Manchin and Edwards (democrat governor of Louisiana) are to the right of much of the British Conservative party, yet also democrats like AOC and Warren are to the left of much of the UK Labour Party.

It’s probably arguable that the Center-Left Democrat leadership would find themselves in the center or center-right in much of Europe, but that doesn’t mean that democrats are not left wing, we’ve often seen the US come out ahead of Europe on some left-wing ideas.

Edited by Silasw on May 28th 2019 at 5:34:03 PM

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#281609: May 28th 2019 at 10:41:39 AM

I already had an issue with talking about where the Overton window in Europe in general is. There is a huge difference between the various states. Using those qualifications only makes sense if you talk about how specific countries compare to each other...plus, even parties which group at the same place on the spectrum have often very different goals. As I just pointed out elsewhere regarding the far right "coalition" which Le Pen and co threaten to built in the new parliament, I don't see how they could work together. Like, at all.

And in the US context, those "I am left and those people aren't left enough for me so I lump them in with the Republicans" are the WORST because they are not helping. It was exactly THAT kind of infighting on the left wing which made it easier for Hitler to take over. Currently the situation is pretty easy: The Republicans are anti-Democratic. Not anti-democrats, outright anti-democratic. The most important goal should be to reclaim said democracy...and once it is reclaimed, you can use it to encourage voters to vote for your version of the future.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281610: May 28th 2019 at 10:57:30 AM

I mean, from an European perspective (where, of course, the Overton Window is further left, and mainline left-wing parties openly have 'socialist' in the name), the DNC are a diet right-wing party. In fact, that's how I've always viewed the Democrats. To paraphrase a panellist from the British current affairs panel show Have I Got News For You: "the USA has a right-wing party and a VERY right-wing party". (Or "one party is pretty right-wing and the other party is mad").

Honestly, this has always been bullshit from people who confuse tolerating a status-quo and making one.

The European Right-Wing parties tolerate Universal Healthcare because it has been entrenched politically and thus cannot be attacked directly. The Democratic Party, on the other hand, wants to create a system of universal healthcare from nothing. And that's just one example.

Reformers in a right-wing status quo should not be considered right-wing, not by any serious political analysis at least.

So no, the Democratic Party is not a "diet right-wing" party by any serious standard. It may have been true under Bill Clinton but it's not the 90's anymore.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 28th 2019 at 10:58:14 AM

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#281611: May 28th 2019 at 10:59:16 AM

> It may have been true under Bill Clinton

What polices did he run that would of made "Diet right wing" applicable?

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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281612: May 28th 2019 at 11:01:22 AM

What polices did he run that would of made "Diet right wing" applicable?

He led the Democratic Party's adoption of neoliberalism.

I.e lowering taxes, slashing regulation, defunding social programs.

Essentially from an economic perspective, they became mirrors of the Republicans, it's one of the few times "both parties are the same" was not entirely bullshit.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 28th 2019 at 11:01:59 AM

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281613: May 28th 2019 at 11:04:27 AM

You forget Tough on Crime too.

This was also deliberate as Bill was running as a Centrist candidate position. It worked well with southerners who really liked him and made the Republicans lose their shit to a level that they've never quite recovered.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 11:04:55 AM

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#281614: May 28th 2019 at 11:04:41 AM

Deregulation of Wall Street, the Crime bill, Don’t ask don’t tell, etc. But the Democrats were in a difficult time and needed to survive. Better to have a tepidly left government — which in 1995, Clinton was — than full Reaganite.

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#281615: May 28th 2019 at 11:05:24 AM

I think all politicans run on the 'tough on crime phrase' its catchy but effective

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on May 28th 2019 at 6:05:41 PM

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281616: May 28th 2019 at 11:06:37 AM

Deregulation of Wall Street, the Crime bill, Don’t ask don’t tell, etc. But the Democrats were in a difficult time and needed to survive. Better to have a tepidly left government — which in 1995, Clinton was — than full Reaganite.

It also opened up the way for George W. Bush. Bluntly, the Clinton's strategies were not genius political moves and caused a lot of harm to their electability as well as issues. You can be critical of your own candidates after all.

I think all politicans run on the 'tough on crime phrase' its catchy but effective

Three Strikes, Mandatory Sentencing, and even harsher drug laws meant it was more than talk. It was under Clinton that crack was punished far more severely than cocaine.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 11:07:39 AM

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#281617: May 28th 2019 at 11:09:34 AM

You forget Tough on Crime too.

This was also deliberate as Bill was running as a Centrist candidate position. It worked well with southerners who really liked him and made the Republicans lose their shit to a level that they've never quite recovered.

I did, thanks for the reminder smile

Tough on Crime was absolutely another way they adopted right-wing positions.

Deregulation of Wall Street, the Crime bill, Don’t ask don’t tell, etc. But the Democrats were in a difficult time and needed to survive. Better to have a tepidly left government — which in 1995, Clinton was — than full Reaganite.

Indeed, it was (thankfully) before my time so I tend to avoid unfair judgment. It was bad but at the same time, the entire national environment was bad.

Though, fun fact. It was opposed by a representative by the name of Nancy Pelosi. That knowledge always makes the anti-establishment attacks on her doubly amusing, she was progressive before many of them were even born.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#281618: May 28th 2019 at 11:12:01 AM

Texas secretary of state resigns after leading botched voter purge that questioned the citizenship of almost 100,000 people – His resignation came just before the Texas Senate failed to confirm him on the last day of the legislative session.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/05/28/texas-secretary-state-resigns-after-leading-botched-voter-purge-that-questioned-citizenship-almost-people/

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#281619: May 28th 2019 at 11:13:08 AM

If Clinton has gone further left, the Democrats would have been finished — not defeated, completely and utterly obliterated. It wasn’t possible to defend a social democratic platform in the American zeitgeist from 1980 to at the earliest 1999, and certainly not until the recession tarnished neoliberalism.

As for Bush, Gore would have won in 2000 if Clinton never had the Lewinsky scandal driving a wedge between him and the Gore campaign, or tarnishing the image of the administration.

Like, Charles, I sort agree with what you’re saying, but your point is completely divorced from the mindset of the Nineties American. Back then, even a broadly centrist person would have been thought of as a commie.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on May 28th 2019 at 2:16:13 PM

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281620: May 28th 2019 at 11:13:13 AM

Though, fun fact. It was opposed by a representative by the name of Nancy Pelosi. That knowledge always makes the anti-establishment attacks on her doubly amusing, she was progressive before many of them were even born.

So was Bernie.

If Clinton has gone further left, the Democrats would have been finished — not defeated, completely and utterly obliterated. It wasn’t possible to defend a social democratic platform in the American zeitgeist from 1980 to at the earliest 1999, and certainly not until the recession tarnished neoliberalism.

As for Bush, Gore would have won in 2000 if Clinton never had the Lewinsky scandal driving a wedge between him and the Gore campaign, or tarnishing the image of the administration.

I was there and horseshit. Clinton was at his MOST popular post-Lewinsky and the reason his impeachment didn't hurt him was because America thought it was a partisan joke (which it was). Gore lost BECAUSE he refused to associate with Clinton.

Every analyst has stated Clinton could have drummed up massive support for Gore and won him the race hadnily.

And yes, I know that undercuts my position.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 28th 2019 at 11:14:47 AM

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#281621: May 28th 2019 at 11:15:50 AM

Bill Clinton's presidency was marked primarily by the rise of full and total opposition among Republicans in Congress. We think of Mitch McConnell as the bogeyman of the Senate, but his spiritual predecessor was Newt Gingrich.

The Clintons had been hated by the right for decades even before they came into power in Washington, and the attacks on them were (and are) so intense as to seem comically hysterical to anyone not involved. Especially since Clinton defeated George Bush for his second-term bid, the anger against him grew even more and caused many to regard his Presidency as fundamentally illegitimate.

Gingrich led the Senate in scorched-earth opposition to Clinton, threatening shutdowns, tanking legislation, refusing confirmations, starting investigations, and doing everything in his power to make the country ungovernable by a Democrat. Clinton faced the same dilemma that Obama would years later: push legislation that fit a liberal agenda but would get ignored, or reach out to the right in the hopes of getting anything done at all.

We can say in retrospect that this was a mistake, but it's hard to make that point when you're sitting in the White House and looking at a legacy of total deadlock.

To be sure, Clinton's politics weren't as left as we might have wanted, but you have to look at the whole picture. This is the era when Republicans decided that there would be no functioning legislative system as long as a Democrat is President. We are still in that era.

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sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#281622: May 28th 2019 at 11:18:51 AM

Seeing on CNN on TV at work that the House GOP has again blocked the disaster aid bill. No sound and it was just before commercial, so I don't have now detail than that.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#281623: May 28th 2019 at 11:26:06 AM

So was Bernie.

You don't see morons claiming that Bernie isn't progressive.

The same isn't true of Pelosi.

Hence my point.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 28th 2019 at 11:56:28 AM

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TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#281624: May 28th 2019 at 11:28:00 AM

[up][up]Article

The short of it is that they are insisting on holding the vote after the House returns from recess.

Edited by TheRoguePenguin on May 28th 2019 at 11:29:24 AM

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#281625: May 28th 2019 at 11:30:23 AM

Is there any reason the vote wouldn’t pass after the recess ends? If not, then not only are the republicans being malicious, but they’re also being petty.

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