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MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#281501: May 25th 2019 at 2:09:00 PM

[up][up][up] considering its reputation one can get the impression that Florida is a fustercluck period.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on May 25th 2019 at 2:09:52 AM

singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#281502: May 25th 2019 at 2:15:35 PM

The only argument I have for keeping the EC is a symbolic one. I want the states to be involved somehow. After all it is an election for the President of the United States. Having a nationwide popular vote effectively erases the idea that the federal government gets it's power from the states.

As has been argued before however symbolic reasons are not worth anything compared to the arguments said above.

I might do some maths on the turnout approach I suggested. If nothing else, it might curb voter suppression because you would be shooting yourself in the foot if voter suppression led to reduced turnout and therefore reduced EC allocation. On the other hand, it does leave it vulnerable to voter boycotts - but then again, that should only happen in uncompetitive states.

Imca (Veteran)
#281503: May 25th 2019 at 2:33:35 PM

[up][up] Nah, its just people as a whole that are a clusterfuck, the only reason Florida is notable is because it has public police records.

Talk to police officers in other states, or any other service worker really (Ambulance workers are a very good source), and you will get the same stories you do from Flordia.

Its just out of sight and out of mind.

Edited by Imca on May 25th 2019 at 2:34:29 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281504: May 25th 2019 at 2:36:20 PM

Also, it doesn't really protect the representation of small states. By design, it overvalues them, but the political reality is that most of these states are Republican strongholds, so their EC share is never competitive.

Bluntly, the problem here is no one is working to break the stranglehold of the GOP on these states, which would be a direct benefit to the population.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#281505: May 25th 2019 at 7:01:52 PM

The problem with the electoral college is less about the disproportion of electors to population and more about the fact that almost every state uses a winner take all system for their electoral college votes, where getting 51% of the popular vote in a state wins a candidate 100% of that state's electoral college vote. (The handful of states that don't use winner take all vote by district, which is arguably worse, as it means those can be gerrymandered.)

The weird thing about this is that the winner-take-all system is done on the state level. The Constitution doesn't say how states have to apportion their electoral college votes, only how many each state gets. (This is why states are also allowed to say "all our electoral college votes go to the winner of the national popular vote".) I've never seen a good explanation for why almost every state has gone to a winner-take-all system, even purple states where you'd think parties would rather have some of the electoral college votes rather than go for an all-or-nothing gamble.

If electoral college votes were assigned proportionally to that state's popular vote, then it would still be theoretically possible for the national popular vote and the electoral college total to be out of whack, but it would be much harder. It would also eliminate the problems of "solid states" and "swing states" since presidential candidates would have to fight for every single electoral college vote by campaigning in every single state, rather than just saying "we've got a safe majority, it doesn't matter if we expect to get 60% or 75%".

Edited by NativeJovian on May 25th 2019 at 10:02:41 AM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Metroid26 Since: Jul, 2011
#281506: May 25th 2019 at 7:30:50 PM

States putting all the votes one way is done as a way of demanding attention. If only some states do it they become more influential in the elections, and since there is no rule about it everyone else has to or they get left behind prisoner's dilemma style.

Imca (Veteran)
#281507: May 25th 2019 at 7:46:28 PM

[up] While that may be the answer, the irony is it doesn't work in practice and its only 4 states any one really cares about any way.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#281508: May 25th 2019 at 8:00:05 PM

"I understand the point you're making but using Florida and Ohio as examples of smaller states being overvalued makes no sense."

Two different points:

1) The point about overvaluing refers to the per capita number of electoral votes that the states get. Wyoming, for example, gets three on a population of ~570,000 people. If we were to normalize EV shares to that ratio, California would have 70, rather than the 55. So, the Red States are overvalued (and Blue States undervalued), because the relationship isn't linear. It punishes the most populous states, such that New York State, for example, gets 29, when it ought to have 35.

2) The point about Florida and Ohio was regarding purple states. Republicans typically have a lock on the smaller states, and because of systematic imbalances, are able to remain competitive while canvasing less voters than any Democrat. Which leaves the so-called purple states, the only states with enough flexibility in local political party strength for either party to win. As a result, massive resources are poured into these states, the discourse is dominated by their regional concerns, and they more or less have the last word on who is elected.

"Bluntly, the problem here is no one is working to break the stranglehold of the GOP on these states, which would be a direct benefit to the population."

That's only really possible at the local level, and even then, I'm skeptical. It takes a perfect storm of Republican failure and Democratic good fortune to put a Democrat into a national level office in a red state.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on May 25th 2019 at 11:07:35 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281509: May 26th 2019 at 1:03:07 AM

White Southerners are seceding their neighborhoods from black cities and making their own.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/05/resegregation-baton-rouge-public-schools/589381/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#281510: May 26th 2019 at 1:10:21 AM

Segregation never really went away and has become an issue in non-Southern places as well. But that's a pretty brazen effort, at any rate.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281511: May 26th 2019 at 1:52:50 AM

I made a joke in one of my books based on an RL incident where I was driving through Michigan and saw a bunch of Confederate stickers and license plates.

I'm like, "You guys fought for the Union."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#281512: May 26th 2019 at 5:17:32 AM

[up][up][up]I wish they'd leave the country and make their own.

i'm tired, my friend
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#281513: May 26th 2019 at 5:21:40 AM

Gotta love the South.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281514: May 26th 2019 at 5:23:50 AM

[up]

There's numerous cases where Libertarians and Anarcho-Capitalists have tried to make their own countries for the purposes of living the Bioshock dream. I shit you not that the whole Andrew Ryan thing has been tried numerous times and it always fails spectacularly. Not the least being because it's almost always a scam (and a good one too!) and second because it's a stupid system that real governments feel no need to take seriously.

https://www.wired.com/story/anarchy-bitcoin-and-murder-in-mexico/

Here a bunch of bitcoin users tried to make Rapture above ground and got themselves killed. It turns out working with criminals while being hugely rich makes you a target.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 26th 2019 at 5:24:30 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#281515: May 26th 2019 at 5:26:33 AM

[up]I hope one day they succeed and take the Nazi filth with them.

But I hope they pick some far off island somewhere.

i'm tired, my friend
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281516: May 26th 2019 at 5:30:00 AM

The short-lived Republic of Minerva was another attempt. The nation of Tonga annexed them because making artificial islands to make a libertarian community offended them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva_Reefs

There was also the attempts to make a(nother) White Nationalist State in the USA.

https://www.newsweek.com/white-supremacist-takeover-north-dakota-town-may-abolish-council-stop-threat-997158

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Leith

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 26th 2019 at 5:30:19 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#281517: May 26th 2019 at 5:30:07 AM

They tried this recently on 8 chan too. In Namibia, of all places https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jmbwbp/white-colony-in-namibia-773

Edited by Forenperser on May 26th 2019 at 2:30:27 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#281518: May 26th 2019 at 5:32:08 AM

I mean, that's just going back to the drawing board.

i'm tired, my friend
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281519: May 26th 2019 at 5:33:16 AM

I feel like I could send them the Draka novels for inspiration but then I realize that S.M. Stirling has probably better ideas than they could ever have and would increase their chance of not dying by at least 20%.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#281520: May 26th 2019 at 5:34:29 AM

If they want to fuck off to some island and die of dysentery or something, more power to them.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281521: May 26th 2019 at 5:41:26 AM

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/03/magazine/FBI-charlottesville-white-nationalism-far-right.html

Here's a fairly good article on the complete failure to contain white nationalist terrorism.

Nothing really knew, though it mentions the murder of the elderly black couple at my local Kroger.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#281522: May 26th 2019 at 1:15:37 PM

So about that doctored Pelosi video (there was a doctored Pelosi video, if you didn't know), is that something the Trump administration has done before or what?

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#281523: May 26th 2019 at 1:18:37 PM

What, specifically, about this video was doctored?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#281524: May 26th 2019 at 1:21:01 PM

[up] They slowed it down and changed the pitch so that she sounded drunk.

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#281525: May 26th 2019 at 2:05:47 PM

They sped up that video of Jim Acosta refusing to give back the mic so it looked like he hit a staffer, so this is par for the course for them.


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