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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
I mean, if it needs to be advertised as “abolishing ICE” to please the voter base that’s one thing, but realistically we’re talking about a rebranding at best here. It’s going to be the same agency with a different name.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 22nd 2019 at 8:28:32 AM
They should have sent a poet.That's my point actually, it pretty much has to be a rebranding. And that's fine.
Symbols matter and the symbol of abolishing ICE would hopefully come with more concrete house cleaning and improved standards.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang![]()
I agree. I just think we need to be realistic with our expectations here, I get the sense a lot of people are expecting something a little more severe than a rebranding when they say “abolish ICE”. They’re imagining some sort of total destruction, when in reality it’s going to be more like minor tweaks. There’s some potential for backlash there.
Its mandate wouldn’t be changed, and its worst employees are a small fraction of the agency. I’ll also point out that government agencies change leadership all the time, that doesn’t make them “new agencies”.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 22nd 2019 at 8:37:03 AM
They should have sent a poet.True, there's always risk in these kinds of strategies. Still, I think it's better to get people excited and possibly have some disappointment later than to not get them excited at all.
It's a reality of politics that the average voter doesn't really want boring reasonable solutions. They want something that sends a message and clearly establishes that the Democrats are doing something. Reform ICE might be more realistic but voters don't tend to want realistic things, so if we can capitalize off that impulse while still behaving realistically I think it's a win.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
My worry is that if the Democrats sell the plan as abolishing ICE, the optics of then just rebranding it will come as a letdown to voters, potentially stalling our momentum. They need to find a better way to sell the plan that still has the right moral impact while being a little more realistic about what’s happening.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 22nd 2019 at 8:48:02 AM
They should have sent a poet.True, but honestly I question whether they'll even realize that? I mean, you'll obviously know because you're informed about this stuff but most voters aren't. If they see ICE being removed and a replacement created that would (hopefully) behave better then from their POV it will be a disbanding of ICE.
This thread would probably know but we're significantly more knowledgeable than many voters, and I don't mean that as a compliment to us.
I'm not even saying Democrats have to lie, they can honestly say they'll remove ICE and make a better replacement. If that involves re-hiring people from ICE well that doesn't really make it less true.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang![]()
Meh - if the Democrats are in a position to let down supporters because they *only* manage to reform ICE as opposed to abolition then it would mean that Democratic momentum would have led to Democrats having either control of the White House and / or Senate. I'm not going to cry over a sapping of Democrat momentum at that point.
So hey it's another media circus this morning, with a "meeting for infrastructure" resulting in Trump having an "impromptu news conference" about the meeting with Pelosi and Schumer this morning about infrastructure. Which Trump refuses to do unless the Democrats stop all the investigations. Also, Pelosi evidently said before hand that Trump is "Enganged in a cover-up" regarding all this.
So regardless of the complaints in this thread, Trump is apparently feeling like the situation really isn't improving for him. The recent judge declaring he needed to give up his tax returns likely has to do with it.
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You can already see even in this thread though that there’s an unrealistic ideal for what “abolish ICE” might involve. Given the current attitudes towards Democrats, I don’t think they can afford to be seen as half-handed on a hot button issue like this. It shouldn’t be hyped, at the very least.
I mean, let’s be honest. There’s probably not even going to be firing and rehiring. Most employees are going to keep their jobs and the agency is going to get a flashy new coat of paint, like when the Department of War became the Department of Defense.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 22nd 2019 at 9:46:51 AM
They should have sent a poet.Schumer's explanation on what happened with the infrastructure 'negotiations':
"In their telling, Trump was never serious about an infrastructure program — Schumer described a setup inside the White House that he said showed that Trump had decided beforehand that he wasn't going to negotiate, but simply tell Democrats no and then walk out to talk to reporters."
"There were investigations going on three weeks ago when we met — and he still met with us," Schumer said. "Now that he was forced to say how he would pay for it, he had to run away. And he came up with this pre-planned response."
I'm seeing a headline on CNN on a TV that Trump is "enraged" by Pelosi's "engaged in a cover-up" remarks
Harriet Tubman $20 bill no longer coming in 2020: Mnuchin says redesign postponed – The redesign of the $20 bill featuring Harriet Tubman will no longer be unveiled in 2020, Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said on Wednesday
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/22/harriet-tubman-20-bill-no-longer-coming-in-2020.html
I assumed the reason was racism
Edited by sgamer82 on May 22nd 2019 at 12:13:24 PM
Nevada Poised To Become 15th State To Ditch Electoral College – The state Senate voted along party lines to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, which would give the state's six electoral votes to the winner of the presidential popular vote
This brings the number of electoral votes potentially committed to 195, assuming the governor signs the measure.
CNN headlines now say "Tensions rise between Pompeo and Bolton"
Edited by sgamer82 on May 22nd 2019 at 12:23:13 PM
Y'know, I'm actually kind of glad that Trump pre-empted the Democrats on this one. There was an article or two about Democrats being worried about handing Trump a "win" by striking a deal on infrastructure spending, so having him torpedo it of his own accord is just icing in my book.
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"That's not ditching the electoral college, it's reforming it.
The difference is that the former would require a constitutional amendment while the latter does not.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangSeems a Distinction Without a Difference, if the end result is largely the same.
Either way it's going by popular vote over EC.
Edited by sgamer82 on May 22nd 2019 at 12:39:53 PM
If every state awards their electors to the winner of the national popular vote, then the Electoral College is abolished for every purpose that matters.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Furthermore, the twenty-dollar bill currently features Andrew Jackson, Trump's personal hero.
So I assume there was probably someone giving Mnuchin a nudge.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on May 22nd 2019 at 8:44:11 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from historyWe don't even need every state. The Compact goes into effect just as soon as the number of electoral votes committed to it reaches 270 - the minimum required number of electoral votes to win an election.
At that point, it doesn't even matter that the other states didn't pass it. There won't be enough electoral votes left to challenge it, so it functionally becomes the law of the land.
If you live in the states of
- Georgia
- South Carolina
- North Carolina
- Ohio
- Wisconsin
- Minnesota
- Kansas
- Arizona
- Nevada
- Oregon
Then your state has introduced legislation for the Compact that is still pending. Write your State Congress (or Governor in Nevada's case) and tell them to vote Yes on America's future.
Edited by TobiasDrake on May 22nd 2019 at 1:07:57 PM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Ironballs: I had heard some similar things, but with the caveat that Pelosi and Schumer were probably expecting any bill they created to die in the Senate because Mc Connell would sooner sell whatever he uses for a soul than approve infrastructure spending.
It would make the point that it was the Republicans who were gridlocking popular legislation.
But then Trump cut out the middle man. Still works, I suppose.

I totally see where you're coming from, but I think Democratic voters are going to demand it. There's only so much awfulness and agency can do before there is public backlash.
Now, I'm sure you'll point out that the problem is ICE-ERO rather than ICE-HSI which is a fair point. But from the voters perspective, ICE is ICE and separating the two is frankly a pointless task, better to "abolish ICE" and just re-hire all of the HSI in its replacement organization.
The people who do good work will continue to do good work and the people who want ICE to be gone will get their wish. Everyone wins.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang