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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Timing or not, I think it warrants being mentioned along with their conclusions. I'm aware there's the possibility of blowback and retaliation for the revelations within. Arguably, Manning's actions contributed to the aftermath that many of the rebellions during the Arab Spring became. However, I don't think that automatically precludes the idea that they should have remained secrets.
Bluntly, you can't repair what isn't allowed to be known to be broken.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 16th 2019 at 2:59:27 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Very well, looking at the revelations...what should have been removed? Kept secret forever.
What doesn't constitute and this is a serious Sincerity Mode question....news the public should know about.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Any thing that identifies individuals is not something the public should know, as some one who supports whistle blowers, systematic things, things that are broad, programs they all should be.
But NEVER any thing that identifies individual people, even if those people are guilty of crimes, identifying them just opens them up to mob justice which isn't justice at all.
That's where she went wrong, the identifying elements were not removed, as such people died, and she is responsible for that... the good intent behind the actions doesn't mater when she couldn't take the time to figure out how to do it without getting people killed
Edited by Imca on May 16th 2019 at 3:20:06 AM
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As was shown in the other thread, the people on the ground for the Arab Spring might dispute that. That’s a deeply western-centric view, and the glossing over of all the hard work done by activists in those countries is a little gross.
If you want to talk fatalities, the single largest loss of American life in Afghanistan, the Extortion 17 shootdown, was just a year after Manning’s leaks, and it’s believed locals knew of the plans beforehand. I can’t imagine they were in the mood to share and risk being targeted.
There’s a place for leaking, and I don’t think anyone here disputes that stuff like Collateral Murder needed to be leaked. I don’t think anyone would dispute that Manning’s persecution has been shameful. There’s the matter of responsible journalism, though, and responsibility for your actions. Wikileaks (not Manning) rarely practices the former, and shouldn’t get to escape the latter.
As far as what should be there and what shouldn’t, like Imca said there’s really no need to publish names or details. The names of translators have nothing to do with covered-up war crimes. Wikileaks has published the frequencies of bomb jammers, details of security schemes for bases, flight paths of important aircraft. How are any of those things of public interest? The whole “oh well, people died, good thing we took a shot at the US” attitude is awful. That you’re happy to overlook the backing of authoritarians and outing of vulnerable people betrays your own bias here.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 16th 2019 at 3:34:13 AM
They should have sent a poet.I learned something that's certainly a thing.
A former top aide for De Blasio has revealed why he's running... He's bored and hates being Mayor so he wants an excuse to leave NYC
.
So yeah, that's definitely a great reason to run for President in an already crowded field <eye twiches>
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangWell, that explains a lot. I legitimately had no idea why he was trying to run, so this actually makes a lot of sense.
Having said that, this is kinda pathetic.
Edited by AzurePaladin on May 16th 2019 at 6:26:39 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer![]()
That’s really the only thing you took away from that whole post?
Given the minor impact it had on the Arab Spring, using that as a defense in this situation is a little flippant. If you’re comfortable trading lives for said minor impact that doesn’t reflect well on you, and as has been pointed out lives didn’t even have to be put at risk. You can chalk that one up to the criminal negligence of the people you’re defending.
Yeah, Assange burnt Manning big time. He outed her too. She’s not really the person I’d fault here, Assange is a bad actor if there ever was one.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 16th 2019 at 3:48:41 AM
They should have sent a poet.And if you shoot some one in the face, it doesn't mater if some one else pressured you to do it... your still responsible for it.
Actions have consequences, and the fact is that she didn't redact it, so she is responsible for the consequences of that.
My point is that all of those points absolutely should have been revealed to the public. The only way democracy can survive is with an informed public.
I find hiding behind the claims of security is the first refuge of the absolutely irredeemably evil.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
So once again it comes down to a shrug. You’re totally cool with unethical, irresponsible behavior as long as it assists a strike against the US. Irredeemably evil? Your position could be pretty easily described as that.
The important points made by these leaks could easily have been made without endangering lives or causing chaos. That you’ll defend that kind of stuff anyways says a lot.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 16th 2019 at 3:55:34 AM
They should have sent a poet.Actions have consequences, and the fact is that she didn't redact it, so she is responsible for the consequences of that.
This is a misrepresnetation of what happened and is misleading about the involvement of Wikileaks to begin with. Manning handed over the files to Wikileaks and then MULTIPLE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS became involved. People act like Assange was alone in this and the fact people pretend he is happens to be propganda designed to discredit Assange. Assange and the various publications had a serious argument about going through and redacting names because the idea that it's the SOURCE rather than the news agencies that redacts information is off point it beggars belief. You need to give over unredacted information to journalists because they can't verify it otherwise.
It's just Assange went on to post the unredacted reports while the other news agencies did not (and they posted their own publications of the facts)
Lots of propaganda being repeated as facts here as well as the repeating of the idea people died from this when the Pentagon has denied it.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 16th 2019 at 3:54:19 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.I believe people who refuse to be transparent about the truth hate America. They hate its values. They hate is soldiers and they get people killed.
I love America and the only way to save it is to stop the people trying to destroy it.
I believe Manning is a patriot and a hero to her country. She honored her oaths and deserves a goddamn medal.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 16th 2019 at 3:56:50 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Which is not mutually exclusive with her acting irresponsibly.
The fact that you’re willing to defend a mouthpiece for authoritarians because they’ve struck out at the US just shows how morally bankrupt your position really is. Don’t pretend this is about anything but that.
Anti-US bias is a hell of a drug.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 16th 2019 at 3:58:55 AM
They should have sent a poet.
I think that’s a point everyone here agrees on. Assange screwed Manning over.
The point Imca seems to be making is that Manning should have known better. By 2010 Assange’s antics were well known, he’d been eagerly leaping to Russia’s defense and endangering lives around the globe for years prior to that point. It might have been a better course of action for her to redact the information herself before handing it over to someone like that.
There was content that the public needed see, but Assange did what he does and people died.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 16th 2019 at 4:02:58 AM
They should have sent a poet.>Imca
And she served her time for that. This is different. This has veered into targeted harassment of a former whistleblower.
>Archon, Charles
Yeah, toss me on the pile angry at Assange. I think bringing him here would be dangerous (as the Government could use the things they want to go for him with against the press as well), but him being tossed to Sweden to be locked away for rape and by proxy all the lives he's ruined sounds like sweet karmic justice to me.
Edited by AzurePaladin on May 16th 2019 at 7:01:55 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerNo this time she was asked to testify, she chose instead to be in comtemp of court, as such, she did another crime, and once agian got punished for this.
This is not hard to understand, its the same thing that should be happening to Bar, but isn't :/
Your told to testify you have to testify, it doesn't mater if you THINK you should have too or not, thats not how the law works.... Bar thinks he shouldn't have too too... so should he be free to say no like apperntly Manning is?
Edited by Imca on May 16th 2019 at 4:05:12 AM
"Stopped clocks are right twice a day while a wrong one is never right." -My thoughts about the Trump presidency
Or it could hold the hearings in public because its disturbing as fuck they want to hold them in private.
But yes, she's engaged in civil disobedience.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 16th 2019 at 4:20:56 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.![]()
Building off this, she also mentioned that she's already testified on this.
What is lawful is NOT the same as what is right.
She shouldn't be needing to make this stand to begin with, because they shouldn't have been summoning her again to begin with.
Edited by AzurePaladin on May 16th 2019 at 7:24:29 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer

Let’s not forget the long-term harm either as far as damaging US relations with locals. This chilling effect was particularly serious in Afghanistan, and if you’d like to get particularly technical you can tie American deaths to it.
And since Putin was brought up, don’t pretend like Wikileaks was in any way critical of him. Here’s a writeup on how they ran interference for him and Russia during the 2016 election: [2]
Like we went over in the Assange thread, a shot at the US apparently trumps everything else. The “it was journalism” argument is as weak as ever, given that very little journalism was done. Manning trusted Wikileaks to take her information and turn it into an explosive story, and instead they outed her and hundreds of other people with a scattershot release.
Edited by archonspeaks on May 16th 2019 at 2:53:17 AM
They should have sent a poet.