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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#280851: May 16th 2019 at 12:10:17 AM

I'm warming to the idea of Biden winning the nomination. Mainly because if there is one thing that Trump has taught us it would be that far too many of the safeguards placed around the presidency were nothing more than high-minded principles and moral platitudes. So an unprincipled and amoral president was always going to bulldoze through them.

Biden has hinted that he only wants one term. I can get behind that, as long as his term focused on cleaning up the mess Trump has made and just strengthening and modernising US institutions so that if we do get another Trump he won't nearly be as destabilising and dangerous. Then he can step aside and a more progressive candidate can then use that fresh start to really make the changes we all want to see.

Because here is a question for you. Would Trump have been more or less effective if he had inherited a weaker or even declining economy from Obama as opposed to the fairly strong economy he did receive?

Put it this way, a lot of Obama's reformist zeal was taken up by resolving the financial crisis. It needed to be done but pretty much killed the momentum from his groundbreaking victory. I don't want our reformist and progressive candidates to suffer the same fate, so if Joe can take one for the team in that regard I'm all for it.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#280852: May 16th 2019 at 12:19:37 AM

Biden can go fuck himself. He’s completely delusional if he thinks the republicans will work with him, and that level of irresponsible shortsightedness is a danger to the nation.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#280853: May 16th 2019 at 12:22:22 AM

My fear is that if Biden wins the nomination, the Democrats will lose the election. In order to overcome the cheats the Republicans have put into the system, they need to activate new people to vote and to push through the barriers put up to keep them from the ballot box. Biden won't be able to activate this kind of voters.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#280854: May 16th 2019 at 12:24:36 AM

This is why I'm wondering if some people here are actually going to sit out the election in 2020 if Biden is the candidate.

Edited by M84 on May 17th 2019 at 3:24:58 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#280855: May 16th 2019 at 12:25:31 AM

I’ll vote for whoever has the damn nomination; but so help me god I’ll fight like hell to be sure it isn’t Biden.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#280856: May 16th 2019 at 12:30:45 AM

I'll vote for Biden in the national election, no question. But like wisewillow said, there's plenty of other people I'd prefer to see win the nomination.

It's been fun.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#280857: May 16th 2019 at 12:32:36 AM

Worth noting that we have little evidence that "bringing new people to vote" by default implies that these people are not moderates, nor that it is more effective than "nominate a more moderate candidate to depress the turnout of the other side and win over moderate-er voters".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#280858: May 16th 2019 at 3:02:31 AM

I believe the lion's share of effort in Iraq was done by Iraqis.

The Iraqis suffered the most casualties, but given the scale and nature of the operation it’s hard to say that any one group wasn’t specifically responsible. The assistance provided by US forces is what made fighting ISIS possible at all for Iraq, and their forces wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without air support. The Kurds suffered just as many casualties as the Iraqis did, and were instrumental in closing up several fronts of the conflict. Saying any one group did all the work erases the fact that it was a truly multinational effort.

[up][up] At this point I can safely say I’d probably vote for any Democrat in the national election, I’d just like to feel good about it if possible.

I’d like the Democrats to have someone who’s actually running on their own platform, not just against Trump’s.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 16th 2019 at 3:03:52 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#280859: May 16th 2019 at 3:26:21 AM

I’m not really surprised that Biden has a commanding lead, and it won’t at all surprise me if he wins the nomination, I’ll still be very disappointed if/when he does.

I also think people are giving to much credit to Biden for his his statement about Republicans. At the very least I think he wants to believe it so he can go back to bipartisan deal making and being friendly with Republican lawmakers. Acknowledging that the Republicans are permanent political enemies that can not be trusted to operate in good faith is too much for him and many moderate Democrats.

I’ll also be very disappointed in the union vote if they really pull for Biden, since I doubt it will be because of his policy.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#280861: May 16th 2019 at 3:35:54 AM

I think you are working under a misconception of what primary voters are caring about.

Most voters do not care about the minutiae of policy, but a lot of people care about getting someone who can defeat Trump.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Imca (Veteran)
#280862: May 16th 2019 at 3:52:42 AM

This thread also has very skewed ideas of how high left wing numbers are too, probaly because most of us here are left so it creates a bit of an echo box.

AoC is less popular then Trump, and disliked more then him... let that sink in nationaly she has less support then a man who puts kids in cages.... So yea while its important that our own base is actualy motivated to vote, we dont want to chase off every one else or motivate Trump voters in the process.

Its not just "can we win over moderates" but also how desprate is the right going to be to fight agianst it.... The people not voting dont just default to "agreeing with us but not having sufficent motivation" as comfoting as that would be the case

Edited by Imca on May 16th 2019 at 3:59:04 AM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#280863: May 16th 2019 at 4:30:13 AM

[up][up]Im honestly a bit skeptical as to how much more electable Biden would be in a General Election. He’s doing well now because of name recognition and the fact that the media has given him the most attention.

I simply do not know if he can maintain that attention in the face of Donald Trump being the attention hog that he is, not to mention the media’s desire to make it a horse race probably has not changed since last election there will be plenty to drag down Biden given his historical record.

[up]Thats not really a good comparison since a plurality of people don’t have a opinion on her since she is a Senator who only occasionally gets coverage and even then it is primarily from Right-Wing outlets. Meanwhile the amount of media attention Trump gets pretty much disallows anyone from not having any opinion on him, and sadly he probably has a more “balanced” ratio of negative to positive coverage then AOC does.

Also this thread really isn’t that far to the left, despite how skewed the American Overton window is.

Edited by Mio on May 16th 2019 at 7:36:41 AM

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#280864: May 16th 2019 at 4:33:25 AM

Even if Biden wins the primary and the general, I’d be worried about the downballot performance he’s capable of inspiring. There’s a non-zero possibility of democratic gain in the senate, but the presidential candidate is what moves numbers to the polls.

My musician page
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#280865: May 16th 2019 at 4:41:12 AM

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that if Biden gets in, it'll be Hillary Clinton all over again.

Biden is not going to inspire young voters to turn out to vote for him. He's probably already gotten the "centrist/corporate Democrat" label, and anyone with it is no better than a Republican to them.

I am not confident that left-wing voters have learned their lesson after 2016, and anything can happen between the primary and the presidential election that can turn moderates/independents against us.

i'm tired, my friend
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#280866: May 16th 2019 at 4:49:03 AM

the amount of media attention Trump gets pretty much disallows anyone from not having any opinion on him

Doesn't it make it impossible to have trump undergo a fair trial, due to the nigh impossibility of forming an impartial jury of his peers?

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#280867: May 16th 2019 at 4:55:07 AM

It's fine, just invent mind-wipe technology.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#280869: May 16th 2019 at 4:59:05 AM

I sure do love how this government is consistently dismantling all the rights queer people have worked for over the past several decades.

Now queer immigrants have less rights than the straight ones. So cool. Just... the best.

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#280870: May 16th 2019 at 5:10:42 AM

[up][up][up][up]Im pretty sure that doesn’t matter in the impeachment process.

If that is what you are talking about.

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#280871: May 16th 2019 at 5:12:38 AM

One concern I have about Biden as a presidential candidate is how his association with Obama will work out. The hope is that warm memories of pre-Trump times will inspire moderates and Democrats to turn out to the polls, but I'm pretty certain the right also has very negative memories of that time? I kinda wonder if running someone associated with Obama won't do more harm than good, especially with Biden being remembered as not terribly competent

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#280872: May 16th 2019 at 5:43:27 AM

Impeachment is a political process.

I'm talking about the judicial process after. Trump needs to be in jail.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#280873: May 16th 2019 at 5:46:39 AM

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that if Biden gets in, it'll be Hillary Clinton all over again.

As someone deeply uninspired by Hillary Clinton (I still voted for her), I can assure you that I'd vote for rocks above Trump. There's also no candidate who is inspiring to the Far Left beyond Bernie and Warren and they scare away the moderates.

A lot of the latecomers people assumed would ignite interest have absolutely no message. Buttigeig seems like a nice guy and I hope this gets his name out for an upcoming election but he has no proposals.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 16th 2019 at 5:47:07 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#280874: May 16th 2019 at 5:50:36 AM

[up][up] That’s often an issue with high-profile cases. The trick is finding jurors who can at least lay their biases aside for the purpose of the case, rather than finding jurors with no bias.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 16th 2019 at 5:50:59 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#280875: May 16th 2019 at 6:10:31 AM

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-mueller-reading/house-democrats-to-read-mueller-report-aloud-in-capitol-hearing-room-idUSKCN1SM0ZO?utm_source=applenews

Here's a basic update of where we stand with the Democrats trying to get everyone filed for contempt charges and other information.

They've moved it to June.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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