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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#280401: May 12th 2019 at 8:40:59 AM

[up][up][up]But they can still give you legal council, right? Better than nothing, at least you might get a clue of how likely you are to win.

[up][up]If you're referring about the whole "putting criminals back in the streets" spiel, I have pretty strong words about that, most of which would likely get me banned.

If it isn't, I'd be glad if you could share.

Edited by HailMuffins on May 12th 2019 at 12:41:52 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280402: May 12th 2019 at 8:48:03 AM

Keeping the public defender system understaffed and overworked makes it so that they often don't have time to even work their cases, instead pushing defendants towards plea bargains so they don't need to actually build a defense. And if they do have to build a case, they won't have the same kind of time and effort to put into it that a hired attorney would.

Some states even have a sort of conscription option on the books, where the judiciary can simply select anyone who has passed their Bar Exam and assign the case to them. For attorneys with an already heavy workload, this can produce hostility and resentment towards the new case which does not result in the best legal representation.

In theory, the public defender system guarantees a right to legal representation for everyone, regardless of wealth and class.

In practice, it's another cog in the wheel of systemic classism and racism (guess who make up the majority of the impoverished? It's not white people!). Public defenders are motivated to treat their cases like an assembly line: get it in, get it out, move on to the next one. Whatever it takes to close the case.

They're the fast food of legal defense. It's quick, it's cheap, and you aren't in a position to be picky about quality if you're coming here.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 12th 2019 at 9:49:12 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#280403: May 12th 2019 at 8:49:26 AM

[up] Perfectly summed up.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#280404: May 12th 2019 at 8:50:00 AM

[up]Seconded.

[up][up][tup]

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#280406: May 12th 2019 at 8:53:54 AM

I fail to see how that's the fault of the defenders themselves, though.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#280407: May 12th 2019 at 8:56:04 AM

I fail to see how that's the fault of the defenders themselves, though.

Well, fault isn't a binary between yes and no.

Everything stems from larger systemic force or problem, that doesn't mean that individual actors cannot have some responsibility.

Just because they're overworked doesn't mean they cannot have done better, but it does mean that we can improve things by addressing the cause of their overwork.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#280408: May 12th 2019 at 8:57:37 AM

[up][up] Point is, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is, the option is shitty one way or the other and one should avoid it at all costs.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#280409: May 12th 2019 at 8:59:39 AM

@Tobias: "You have the right to an attorney, you don't have the right to a specific attorney." And now for a little bit of relevant comic relief: a certain defendant once took Refuge in Audacity in trying to get a better defense counsel. The language is horriffic, I'd put up all the trigger warnings, but you've probably already seen this video.

@Examples of public defense: that's how Better Call Saul started. Apparently in New Mexico public defense jobs are taken on by lawyers at will, and they get paid by the case, an excruciatingly, unsustainably small amount, so it's not a problem of overwork so much as one of underpayment.

Edited by Oruka on May 12th 2019 at 9:03:17 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280410: May 12th 2019 at 9:00:04 AM

I would actually peg the majority of the blame on the state government. They make the budget for the public defenders' office, which means the decision on how many public defenders can be employed ultimately lands in their lap.

The quality of public defenders can vary district by district, depending on how much money a given district has for hiring defenders versus the caseload those defenders are expected to work.

This is kind of a government Life Hack for terrible people. If you're making the budget, you can raise the rate of convictions in an impoverished district by reducing the budget for public defenders, thus increasing the case workload for each remaining defender.

The difference between ten defenders working ten cases in a month versus five defenders working twenty cases can have a dramatic impact on the number of plea bargains accepted.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 12th 2019 at 10:02:40 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#280411: May 12th 2019 at 9:01:56 AM

They have a deserved bad rep however.

Someone who is having to deal with 1000 different cases is certainly at fault that is certainly responsible for not giving their best on each one.

And I have yet to see this problem being brought up once, despite how obviously essential it is to any democratic nation to have good, free legal council.

No wonder the US is doing so well.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#280412: May 12th 2019 at 9:04:32 AM

But they can still give you legal council, right?

Not for a civil issue like suing someone, public defenders have no role to play if you’re not accused of a crime.

Now many lawyers offer free consultations and such, but you’re forgetting the hidden costs of suing someone, you have to spend time finding a legal aid clinic that is able to give you help, you have to spend time speaking to people at the legal aid place to get them to assess your case and even if they take your case you then have to spend a ton of time working with the lawyer to bring the case.

Many people are too poor to do that, the time needed isn’t time they have, they have to use those hours in the day trying to earn enough money to not starve. That’s before one considers the mental and physical toll that such cases that bring on a person.

Shit I’m middle class with a strong support network and I’ve had to walk away from a likely slam dunk case against a former employer because I didn’t have the energy for it, I was already fighting against another previous employer and I needed to spend some time trying to mentally keep it together and get myself money to pay rent. I enjoy legal fights and had the luxury of both a supportive partner and supportive (and financially secure) parents I could fall back on, but two cases at once was to much even then.

Utilising the legal system takes a lot of work and money, not everyone has the time or money to do that.

Edited by Silasw on May 12th 2019 at 4:07:14 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#280413: May 12th 2019 at 9:04:42 AM

That thing with the hospital bill though.....

Frankly, I'm surprised they don't charge people for breathing. Or for holding your kids after they are born. Oh wait, they do.

Free Markets fix everything, am I right? Fucking neo-classical assholes.

Edited by TechPriest90 on May 12th 2019 at 12:05:05 PM

I hold the secrets of the machine.
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#280414: May 12th 2019 at 9:05:06 AM

[up][up][up]"Starve the beast and cage it"?

[up]That's inhumane.

Edited by Oruka on May 12th 2019 at 9:06:53 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280415: May 12th 2019 at 9:12:58 AM

On a lighter note from 2016: Michael Barrett, director for the Public Defender system in Missouri, once protested against the budget-slashing of the Public Defender's office by assigning state governer Jay Nixon to defend a case. He could do this because Nixon, who has passed the Bar Exam, is technically a lawyer.

Barrett called him "the one attorney in the state who not only created the problem, but is in a unique position to fix it".

The courts ultimately shot down the gesture, but the symbolic intent was still clear.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 12th 2019 at 10:13:35 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#280416: May 12th 2019 at 9:22:09 AM

I was reading that transcript yesterday. It's particularly amazing because the judge ended up getting involved, which is plain stupid.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#280417: May 12th 2019 at 10:20:36 AM

I don’t blame public defenders. There’s not enough of them, they’re massively underpaid and overworked, and that’s a deliberate choice by state and city governments. Compare the funding, hours, etc for any prosecutor’s office versus public defenders...

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#280418: May 12th 2019 at 10:31:08 AM

In practice, it's another cog in the wheel of systemic classism and racism (guess who make up the majority of the impoverished? It's not white people!).

As far as I'm aware, they do, actually. Statistically speaking any given white person is much less likely to be poor than any given black or Hispanic person, but numerically they still make up the majority of the poor.

But I guess that's not really in the public consciousness which is related to other issues.

Edited by LSBK on May 12th 2019 at 12:32:03 PM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#280419: May 12th 2019 at 10:48:09 AM

NVM

Edited by HailMuffins on May 12th 2019 at 2:56:31 PM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#280420: May 12th 2019 at 10:54:37 AM

[up]...That's exactly what I said.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#280422: May 12th 2019 at 11:09:40 AM

Going back into ancient history (i.e. BDT) it was for this reason I wanted Jane Louise Kelly to be the Supreme Court nominee instead of Merrick Garland. She had spent a significant chunk of her career as a federal public defender and so I thought she would provide a fresh perspective onto the court that you wouldn't have otherwise had.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#280423: May 12th 2019 at 11:17:53 AM

Were I in a position to improve the lot of public defenders, I might attempt to enact the following:

  • try to make the wages more competitive with hired attorneys.
  • place a limit on how many cases a specific defender works on, to prevent prioritizing quantity of cases over quality as well as overwork. Any opening of jobs that arises would be a side benefit.
  • allow an appeal process for clients that are unsatisfied with their defense, the goal here is to allow clients to change their defender if they are shown to be untrustworthy to represent the case (like say a racist representing the victim of a hate crime) and to force defenders to be on their best behavior as to avoid being replaced. Defenders that are changed by this policy would also be forced to address their behavior that led to their replacement or be barred by the local bar association.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#280424: May 12th 2019 at 1:34:59 PM

An easier way for public defenders is actually pay them because a lot of them are not paid or funded at all because conservative governments (of course it's them) don't want to give but the bare minimum in order to satisfy the law for "criminals."

But yes, a systematic fix would require:

  • Getting rid of a lot of laws that are frivolous (minor drug use)
  • more money for them
  • more public defenders

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 12th 2019 at 1:37:26 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#280425: May 12th 2019 at 3:16:43 PM

Any opening of jobs that arises would be a side benefit.

There's always "open jobs" for public defenders, AFAIK. The problem is that nobody can afford to take them for the same reason that doctors can't afford to become general practitioners: because law school sets their student loans with the assumption that you'll be a highly-paid specialist, and people aren't going to work as an attorney for ramen wages. (Hence why I like the programs with "work as a PD for x amount of years and we'll discharge your loans" as a benefit, though even those won't attract those who get into law for the money.)

What would be ideal is if the bar association recommendation against working more than a certain number of felony cases per year could be upgraded to an enforceable rule, but no judge is going to do that - it would clog up the assembly line.


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