TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#280301: May 10th 2019 at 3:12:12 PM

Come to think of it, where is the Mueller Report right now? Like, physically where is it? I keep thinking what might happen if an employee at whatever building it's being held in just decided to leak it to the public, possibly out of frustration.

The GOP would obviously doubt its authenticity, but let's face it, if it gets released legitimately they'd doubt its authenticity anyway.

Edited by PresidentStalkeyes on May 10th 2019 at 11:12:46 AM

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#280302: May 10th 2019 at 3:13:27 PM

If this is discovery theatre then I’ll withdraw by objection, but I’m not convinced yet.

That or if Barr refuses does he have a residence in D.C.? Could they send the sergeant at arm in debt collector style to take Barr’s stuff?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#280303: May 10th 2019 at 3:26:39 PM

still surprised the full Muller report hasn't somehow been leaked yet,I'm aware by now why that would be a bad thing,but still,things get leaked all the time so there must be some tight security around it

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#280304: May 10th 2019 at 5:00:47 PM

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-congress-contempt/us-house-could-slap-25000-per-day-contempt-fines-on-trump-advisers-democrat-idUSKCN1SG23U

What Reuters thinks of the whole fine thing.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A senior Democratic lawmaker has suggested fines of $25,000 a day for contempt on U.S. officials who stonewall congressional investigations of President Donald Trump and his administration.

Expanding on an idea floated days ago by Democrats as a way of putting some teeth into various inquiries of Trump, his turbulent presidency, his family and his business interests, Representative Adam Schiff spoke in two interviews about reviving the “inherent contempt” power of Congress.

“We would levy fines on those who are not cooperating,” Schiff, the chairman of the U.S. House of Representatives Intelligence Committee told Axios in an interview published on Friday.

“You could fine someone $25,000 a day until they comply. You can do that. We’re looking through the history and studying the law to make sure we’re on solid ground,” Schiff said.

Democrats who control the House have confronted the Republican president and his administration for refusing to cooperate with at least six separate investigations. Republicans have accused Democrats of grandstanding for progressive voters, but even the Republican-controlled Senate Intelligence Committee has subpoenaed the president’s son, Donald Trump Jr.

Congress can subpoena testimony and documents, then enforce these formal requests by holding recalcitrant subpoena targets in contempt of Congress. At that point, legal options are less clear cut.

Congress can ask federal prosecutors to take the matter to court, but legal experts have questioned the effectiveness of this option since prosecutors work for the Justice Department whose top official is appointed by Trump.

Congress can go to court itself and ask a judge to step in, but this can be time consuming. Finally, opening an impeachment proceeding adds force to congressional inquiries, but Democratic leaders have been reluctant to take this rare step.

Democrats instead are exploring inherent contempt, a dormant, extrajudicial power to arrest, detain and fine that Congress has not used since the 1930s.

Schiff talked about reviving inherent contempt and imposing fines on The Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC on Thursday. He said such a step by Congress “may be even quicker than the impeachment proceeding or the court proceeding.”

U.S. Attorney General William Barr, a Trump appointee, has been cited for contempt by the House Judiciary Committee for refusing to hand over an unredacted copy of the Mueller report on Russian election interference and any ties to the 2016 Trump campaign. The administration invoked executive privilege to keep the full Congress from seeing the report.

House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler raised inherent contempt as a possibility last week.

Under inherent contempt, the House sergeant-at-arms can arrest and detain people. Democratic leaders have said they have no plans to revive that power. FILE PHOTO: The U.S. Attorney General and heads of the U.S. congressional committees pursuing investigations focusing on President Donald Trump are seen in a combination of file photos (L-R clockwise): U.S. Attorney General William Barr, House Oversight and Reform Committee Chairman Elijah Cummings, House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Richard Neal, House Financial Services Committee Chairwoman Maxine Waters, House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler, Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Richard Burr and House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff. REUTERS/File Photos/File Photo

“It used to be we imprisoned people,” Schiff said on MSNBC. “But we could also fine them $25,000 a day until they comply, or some other number.”

Exactly how that would work is uncertain. Some legal experts have said fines could be imposed, but that it might require passage of enabling legislation by Congress.

Trump has openly vowed to fight congressional subpoenas and directed top officials not to comply. On Friday, Nadler said his panel had again issued a subpoena to former White House counsel Don Mc Gahn and that lawmakers expect him to appear May 21 or face being cited for contempt, according to Fox News.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#280305: May 10th 2019 at 5:13:46 PM

So...if its fine that Barr gets to go free with a fine after violating a subpoena, can we then agree that its a double standard to then claim that Manning needs to be in jail?

Also, 25k a day is a pretty small amount, from what I can tell with a brief check is that Barr has millions. It would take a while before making him have to do anything.

When we're dealing with the amounts of money that factor in here, 25k is a slap on the wrist.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#280306: May 10th 2019 at 5:16:54 PM

Doubly so if the statues limit it to 100K.

But it is weird hearing people defend the Democratic choice here while also claiming, "The law is the law" with Manning.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 10th 2019 at 5:20:25 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#280307: May 10th 2019 at 5:56:25 PM

The law is the law, receiving a fine is not getting off scot-free.

Unless you think Manning should receive 25K fines per-day?

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#280308: May 10th 2019 at 5:58:39 PM

Just to clarify, when they say there's a 100K limit, I assume that's 100K per day, not 100K in total? I mean, if it was the latter then they could only fine him for four days. :V

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#280309: May 10th 2019 at 6:01:02 PM

Just to clarify, when they say there's a 100K limit, I assume that's 100K per day, not 100K in total? I mean, if it was the latter then they could only fine him for four days. :V

That's.... a good question.

To add on to it, I think it'd be good to have a source for the $100K claim. Because I don't think I've seen anyone post one yet.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#280310: May 10th 2019 at 6:02:49 PM

I think the problem people are having is that Barr is apparently so rich that spending 25 and eventually 100K a day amounts to the opposite of a Felony Misdemeanor. The thing is, even if he is that rich, 1) how do we confirm that, and 2) isn't having to spend money on anything but lobbying like walking on hot coals for people like him? If this pans out, Barr's presumed greed will make him crack sooner or later.

i'm tired, my friend
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#280311: May 10th 2019 at 6:06:51 PM

Like, even assuming this doesn't matter to him, I'm wondering what happens afterwards.

It feels like a lot of you are just going "Okay, so this amounts to nothing, he still doesn't answer the subpoena and provide the information, and that's it." and I don't think I'm ready just yet to assume that's how things go.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#280312: May 10th 2019 at 6:12:15 PM

They are only discussing the use of a fine, right? One of the issues is that they do not even know if it is legal to do that.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#280313: May 10th 2019 at 6:13:00 PM

The bigger issue boils down to the fact the House can arrest Barr with inherent contempt but the fine issue is another question and whether it can be enforced.

And whether Congress fining him could be challenged in court.

Which inherent contempt arrests can't.

Teapot Dome gave us a legal precedent for a lot of the charges but not fines.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 10th 2019 at 6:28:05 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#280314: May 10th 2019 at 6:20:18 PM

Another issue is that they may very well issue contempt charges for others in the WH since the WH has already declared they will not cooperate with subpoenas.

Arresting just the AG is one thing. But this clusterfuck really is somewhat uncharted ground.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#280315: May 10th 2019 at 6:27:32 PM

Well, Teapot Dome is also charting it.

It's just it and Watergate were both massive crises for government.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#280316: May 11th 2019 at 5:50:46 AM

Unless you think Manning should receive 25K fines per-day?

I think that if Barr’s punishment is capped at daily fines and no jail time then it’s raw hypocrisy to not cap Manning’s punishment at the same. I think that she and her supporters would prefer fines to jail time.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#280317: May 11th 2019 at 6:26:10 AM

Speaking of, I dunno if it’s been mentioned yet, but they finally released her from prison (again). But then they issued a subpoena for basically the same thing.

So she’s been subpoenaed three times for something she already testified once for.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280318: May 11th 2019 at 6:27:53 AM

I also agree with Manning's treatment becoming hypocritical.

I, personally, have no problem with Manning being arrested for Contempt of Congress. I also believe Barr should be arrested for Contempt of Congress. If you refuse a Congressional subpoena, you should be arrested. Don't matter who you are.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#280319: May 11th 2019 at 6:29:38 AM

Ugh, apparently Mueller's scheduled testimony has been disrupted because of the Contempt charge against Barr. Whether it was Mueller himself that took umbrage or the DoJ running interference is unclear from the article, but to say it's frustrating would be a hell of an understatement.

The same article mentions that the House vote on the Contempt charge may be delayed - not for political reasons, but so that it can be bundled with other Contempt citations levied against other Administration officials.

Edited by ironballs16 on May 11th 2019 at 9:31:31 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#280320: May 11th 2019 at 6:40:55 AM

Like I said, they're making a list.

That's probably why they're also considering fines — they're facing the realization that they may end up charging maybe half of the fucking WH with contempt.

It'd be quite a sight if more WH staff were in prison than in the actual WH.

Edited by M84 on May 11th 2019 at 9:41:38 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#280321: May 11th 2019 at 6:49:56 AM

Note: Manning isn’t being subpoenaed by Congress, she’s being subpoenaed by the Justice Department.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#280322: May 11th 2019 at 6:51:54 AM

I was wondering when someone would bring that up.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#280323: May 11th 2019 at 7:06:32 AM

Sure the contempt is against a different institution but I don’t see a meaningful difference, contempt of court and contempt of Congress are equally serious and basically the same crime.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#280324: May 11th 2019 at 7:18:22 AM

The point seems to be that it's up to the institution to determine what the punishment for contempt should be.

It'd be a straight up Double Standard if Manning were charged with contempt of Congress too and got jail time from them instead of a fine (assuming they ultimately go with the fine for Barr)...but that's not the case here.

Edited by M84 on May 11th 2019 at 10:21:01 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#280325: May 11th 2019 at 8:03:59 AM

Congress wrote the law on contempt of court, if they honestly think that contempt isn’t a crime that merits jail time then they can pass (or attempt to pass) a law limiting the punishment for contempt of court to fines.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Total posts: 417,856
Top