Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
The reason is that they're afraid of what pushing back against Trump and Barr would do to our country, so they're hoping that an unenforceable nuisance play will work. They're Cherry Tapping because they're terrified to throw an actual punch.
Ok, you've asserted this but I don't really see any evidence to support your assertion.
To quote the article I posted:
"You could fine someone $25,000 a day until they comply," he said at an event sponsored by Axios. "We're looking through the history and studying the law to make sure we're on solid ground."
The obvious impracticalities of trying to detain Trump administration witnesses found in contempt have led Schiff and others to consider alternate means of persuasion, such as imposing a fine. Such an action has never been tried before, so whether Congress has the authority to do so is an open question.
In an 1881 case, the Supreme Court suggested that the power to punish for contempt might include "fine or imprisonment." But it was a comment made in passing. If the House tried to impose a fine, it would undoubtedly lead to a court fight.
Congress has successfully used the courts to imprison people for contempt. But its power to compel government officials is limited. In a 2017 study of the contempt power, legislative attorney Todd Garvey of the Congressional Research Service wrote, "Efforts to punish an executive branch official for non-compliance with a subpoena will likely prove unavailing in many, if not most, circumstances." Suing government officials in civil court may also prove inadequate "due to the time required to achieve a final, enforceable ruling in the case," he said.
Even so, Schiff said he believes the time may be right for trying something new. "If there is going to be this across-the-board stonewalling, we are going to have to consider extraordinary remedies."
You're arguing that they're lying and don't actually want to compel Trump's officials at all but I don't see any evidence of that. Just because they don't choose the specific result you want does not mean that they must have poor intentions, or that they're even wrong.
And that's what it comes down to, they aren't doing what you want so you're making strong assumptions about their intentions which aren't particularly substianted.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 10th 2019 at 1:43:19 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangEveryone is saying the Democrats have a big plan and this is the smart play. However, what we have is the House threatening Barr with arrest for Contempt. Then when Barr calls their bluff, they proceed to switch the threat to a fine.
Which sure as shit doesn't feel as hard as jail time. It's also not what people who act in contempt of Congress should be charged with (and we have Manning as an example). People are talking about how "Manning doesn't get to ignore the law just because she's been abused." So why the fuck does Barr? Why does he get different treatment?
Repeatedly, the rule of law is challenged and Trump's cronies ignore it. The rich and powerful need to be held to account.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 10th 2019 at 1:47:24 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Which sure as shit doesn't feel as hard as jail time. It's also not what people who act in contempt of Congress should be charged with (and we have Manning as an example). People are talking about how "Manning doesn't get to ignore the law just because she's been abused." So why the fuck does Barr? Why does he get different treatment?
Repeatedly, the rule of law is challenged and Trump's cronies ignore it. The rich and powerful need to be held to account.
The quoted specifically mentioned that. There are practical differences between private citizens and members of the administration.
That may not be fair but it doesn't make it less true, and it doesn't mean that fines are not real. No one is arguing that contempt should not face consequences, simply that fines are a form of consequence. And there's no evidence that suggests they cannot be efficacious.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangWorst case scenario from the arrest, Capitol Police show up for Barr, his security forces a stand-off, gun fight breaks out, Barr isn't there anyway, Fox News uses this to fuel their propaganda machine, the schism within communities grows.
Granted, I don't think the current administration is capable of coordinating such a move.
My musician pageThere’s nothing impractical about arresting Barr, the capital police will assist the sergeant at arms if he asks them to, the secret service aren’t going to get in a shoot out with the capital police.
Barr doesn’t get the same protection as Trump, there’s nowhere that says he’s to important to jail, so to jail he should go.
Barr is being given a lesser sentence for the same crime as others, purely because he and his boss are implicitly threatening to kill people if an attempt to arrest him in made.
That is wrong, they’re giving in to terrorism.
Edited by Silasw on May 10th 2019 at 8:55:17 AM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranI'm taking off my outrage hat for the moment.
Politically, this is a disaster. The Democratic party doesn't need to appeal to racist cultists in order to get elected since nothing they sell appeals to Trumpeteers. However, they can damn well cause people to not bother to vote if they actively collaborate in letting criminal activity pass without punishment. They have been talking a big game but the legislation for this is limited to 100K.
The Democrats need to show they're the party of law, justice, and democracy. If they're not, then people will not vote for them who are angered by Trump.
And I won't blame them.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.If people refuse to vote for Democrats because they applied a fine instead of a jail time they deserve what they get.
This could be entirely a mistake and that reaction would be 100% unjustified and idiotic.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangA daily 25K fine is not nothing, at this point, people are being dishonest.
You can say that it's not the proper course of action but saying it's nothing is objectively false and entirely disingenuous.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 10th 2019 at 2:04:42 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangTrump had the highest support ratio of evangelicals ever but it seems that he's gone down an astonishing number of points (but still has a majority). A major part of this appears to be his anti-gay agenda not going over well with young evangelicals who don't hold it to be an issue and/or outright have no issues with it.
They also dance around the fact that older evangelicals are voting because of racism but it's there.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Yeah, this is a fair solution.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 10th 2019 at 2:16:36 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangQuestion: if the Democrats successfully get the information they need before 2020 - the Mueller Report and the tax returns, maybe - what would they plan on doing with them? Since it's obvious there's shady shit in those documents, but it's not a foregone conclusion that the information would send the entire executive except Trump to jail (since it seems that Trump always manages to dodge taking responsibility for anything because he's always being manipulated :V).
Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!Politically, this is a disaster. The Democratic party doesn't need to appeal to racist cultists in order to get elected since nothing they sell appeals to Trumpeteers. However, they can damn well cause people to not bother to vote if they actively collaborate in letting criminal activity pass without punishment. They have been talking a big game but the legislation for this is limited to 100K.
The Democrats need to show they're the party of law, justice, and democracy. If they're not, then people will not vote for them who are angered by Trump.
And I won't blame them.
I will.
I agree with you that this may demoralize voters such that they don't bother voting, but I can't agree with it as a course of action. I'm mad as hell too, but refusing to vote is just plain giving up. I won't be surprised if people refrain from voting but I will blame each and every one of them if Trump wins 2020.
That said, I would not be surprised to see an uptick in primary challenges. With sitting Democrats proving themselves spineless, we may see another surge in fresh faces trying to take seats from career Dems.
I was on the career Dems' side when that happened in 2018. This William Barr debacle, however, is pushing me more towards the insurgent Dems. I've defended Pelosi for years, but if she's too gutless to push back against Trump, we need new leadership.
Edited by TobiasDrake on May 10th 2019 at 3:56:17 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I’m wondering if this will become a point in the primary, all it takes is someone at a town hall to ask a candidate if they think Barr should be in jail and it can easily become a whole thing.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Yeah, Barr going into hiding wouldn't be a bad thing in my book. He'd be unable to do more harm that way.
I do wonder about the presence of bad-faith actors amongst the democrats, though, as I have unfavorable opinions toward some of the democratic senators anyway already, but there's no point in speculation.
My musician page