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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#280251: May 10th 2019 at 12:58:27 PM

The Trump Administration is making an authoritarian stand against Congressional oversight. Trump's cronies are violating subpoenas because they know the spineless Legislative won't do anything to make them cooperate.

What we need is a bloody nose to the Executive. A show of force against their strongman tactics that shows that when we subpoena, we damn well mean it and will back it up with arrests and imprisonment if needed.

A fine doesn't do that. We fine them, they don't pay it. And then we're back at square one. They're already violating subpoenas; the f*ck makes you think they'll cough up some pocket money?

We are in a Constitutional crisis; now is not the time for Democrats to get cold feet. This is another show of weakness in the face of an authoritian threat to our democracy.

For the life of me, I don't know why you presume to assume that the Democrats would levy a form of attack that wouldn't actually work. There is absolutely no reason to assume that they would choose it if they couldn't enforce the fines.

You're acting as if fining them is some normal minor thing that is them soft balling it. But that's not true, it's an extraordinary measure that would be a first.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#280252: May 10th 2019 at 12:58:27 PM

Also worth noting that most of the House wasn't even aware they could arrest or fine people for contempt of Congress until they started dusting off these old laws.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#280253: May 10th 2019 at 12:59:26 PM

My reaction is born from the fact that I want criminal activity by politicians to be punished.

By Trump, by Barr, and by their cronies.

Anything less is a failure.

Especially given the point of the Mueller report is to expose more crimes.

For the life of me, I don't know why you presume to assume that the Democrats would levy a form of attack that wouldn't actually work. There is absolutely no reason to assume that they would choose it if they couldn't enforce the fines.

The problem is the attack is itself not proportionate to the crime.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 10th 2019 at 1:00:58 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280254: May 10th 2019 at 12:59:27 PM

To note: $25k/day might sound impressive as a flat number, but if we're forced to rely on paycheck reduction 'cause they inevitably refuse to pay, that amount drops substantially. For instance, if someone were making $100,000/year and their paycheck was reduced to $0 to pay that fine, then the fine becomes $273.97/day instead.

This is the third time that the House has lost its nerve in the face of arresting Barr. The first time was when they gave him a second deadline to avoid contempt charges. The second time was when Pelosi decided to wait and not bring the contempt charges before the House. And now they've downgraded the contempt charge from an arrest to a fine Barr won't pay anyway.

Trump thinks the House is too craven to stand up to him, and right now they're proving him right. This is bad for our country.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 10th 2019 at 2:01:43 AM

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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#280255: May 10th 2019 at 1:02:01 PM

My reaction is born from the fact that I want criminal activity by politicians to be punished.

By Trump, by Barr, and by their cronies.

Anything less is a failure.

Especially given the point of the Mueller report is to expose more crimes.

And my reaction is borne from the fact that these subpoenas exist to make them talk if they talk from fines or jail the effect is the same.

Acting as if it's the end instead of a means to an end is a mistake.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#280256: May 10th 2019 at 1:02:10 PM

Also worth noting that most of the House wasn't even aware they could arrest or fine people for contempt of Congress until they started dusting off these old laws.

Watergate.

2 Attorney Generals were arrested there.

Acting as if it's the end instead of a means to an end is a mistake.

Is there a more important end than arresting a crooked Attorney General serving an authoritarian leaning President for the crime he has committed?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 10th 2019 at 1:03:17 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#280257: May 10th 2019 at 1:06:02 PM

Is there a more important end than arresting a crooked Attorney General serving an authoritarian leaning President for the crime he has committed?

This is ridiculously backward thinking, the problem is that he's refused a subpoena. The subpoena is the means to the end of getting him to testify to Congress to continue to investigate Trump.

Arresting a crooked Attorney General serving an authoritarian leaning President was never the point of this, what the Dems wanted was to have him talk to them. Arrest is only on the table because of his refusal to do that.

This view that jail is somehow fundamentally different from strong daily fines is just arbitrary.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#280258: May 10th 2019 at 1:07:23 PM

Is there a more important end than arresting a crooked Attorney General serving an authoritarian leaning President for the crime he has committed?

Finding out how much the crooked Attorney General serving an authoritarian leaning President knows about the crime he has committed.

Edited by sgamer82 on May 10th 2019 at 2:09:27 AM

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#280259: May 10th 2019 at 1:08:16 PM

Would making an arrest even be possible? I may be giving Barr more credit than he deserves, but it seems unlikely that he doesn't have an escape route. Though I guess even if that is true, he'd at least be forced not to show up in public nor be able to perform under Trump's orders.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#280260: May 10th 2019 at 1:09:06 PM

Tobias brought up most members of Congress being independently wealthy, but I fail to see what that matters for Barr.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#280261: May 10th 2019 at 1:09:16 PM

Finding out how much the crooked Attorney General serving an authoritarian leaning President knows about the crime he has committed.

Exactly.

Which is why this anger at the lack of jail time is so misguided, what matters is getting Barr and the others to testify in front of Congress. If fines accomplish that then it's just as appropriate as temporary imprisonment.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#280262: May 10th 2019 at 1:09:41 PM

Actually what the Dems wanted was for him to testify and to turn over the unredacted Mueller Report.

The way jail time works is this: Barr goes to prison until he testifies. When he testifies, he can leave prison. Boom.

Meanwhile, Democrats subpoena whoever fills his role as Acting Attorney General for the unredacted Mueller Report. If that person refuses, they get held in contempt and go to prison. And then Democrats subpoena whoever fills their role as Acting Acting Attorney General. Repeat until Trump runs out of cronies willing to go to jail for him.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 10th 2019 at 2:10:25 AM

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wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#280263: May 10th 2019 at 1:10:16 PM

Just weighing in as someone who graduated from law school yesterday- I don’t think Charles and Tobias are jumping the gun, I think they’re accurately assessing the situation. This is an authoritarian response to lawful oversight that must be strongly opposed.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#280264: May 10th 2019 at 1:11:02 PM

I'm just curious about how some of you seeing this going down, do you ultimately envision Barr not giving up anything, and not being impacted in any meaningful way?

What scenario have decided is basically fate at this point? Because I have no idea how this is ultimately going to end, and I find it very annoying when people act as if they do.

[up]Congratulations.

Edited by LSBK on May 10th 2019 at 3:12:26 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#280265: May 10th 2019 at 1:11:37 PM

Watergate.

2 Attorney Generals were arrested there.

Unless I'm reading things wrong, not for contempt of Congress and this was several years after Watergate. The comparison is not apt in this case.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280266: May 10th 2019 at 1:12:28 PM

[up][up] I imagine William Barr refusing to pay any fines.

And then the ball's right back in the Democrats' court. They're kicking the can down the road in the hopes that if they drop to their knees and beg hard enough, Trump won't make them arrest the Attorney General.

Trump holds all the power right now because the House is terrified of actually taking the steps needed to oppose him.

From what we've seen so far, I think it will be 2020 before any actual legal action is taken against Trump's Administration. And then what we'll hear is, "It's an election year. We need to just focus on beating him at the polls." Trump is basically playing for time, knowing that if he just obstructs long enough, it won't matter anymore and everyone will finally drop the subject.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 10th 2019 at 2:15:15 AM

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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#280267: May 10th 2019 at 1:16:24 PM

Just weighing in as someone who graduated from law school yesterday- I don’t think Charles and Tobias are jumping the gun, I think they’re accurately assessing the situation. This is an authoritarian response to lawful oversight that must be strongly opposed.

Congratulations!

On the rest of your post, I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with that.

What the point of disagreement covers is whether or not this is a strong response, they've asserted that it's not going to impact the people in question at all and I'm highly skeptical of that claim. House Democrats are, for the most part, highly educated and experienced people who are unlikely to choose their response for no reason.

Surely, if fines could not be effectively employed against people in the administration House Democrats wouldn't have deployed them?

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 10th 2019 at 1:17:20 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280268: May 10th 2019 at 1:21:39 PM

What the point of disagreement covers is whether or not this is a strong response, they've asserted that it's not going to impact the people in question at all and I'm highly skeptical of that claim. House Democrats are, for the most part, highly educated and experienced people who are unlikely to choose their response for no reason.

Surely, if fines could not be effectively employed against people in the administration House Democrats wouldn't have deployed them?

It's not "for no reason". They have a reason. They want to be seen taking a stand against Trump, but they don't want to push us deeper into the Constitutional crisis we're already in by taking serious action. They want the optics of resistance without the consequences, because government stability means more to them than it does to Trump.

The reason is that they're afraid of what pushing back against Trump and Barr would do to our country, so they're hoping that an unenforceable nuisance play will work. They're Cherry Tapping because they're terrified to throw an actual punch.

That is a reason. A shitty reason is still a reason.

Trump is banking on the fact that the House doesn't have the nerve to go to war with him. That if he just stands straight up and stares really hard, they won't rise to the challenge. And he's winning.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 10th 2019 at 2:22:46 AM

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ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#280269: May 10th 2019 at 1:22:04 PM

Quick, genuine question here - when it comes to fines vs. jail time for the sitting Attorney General, which option would play better with the public? Because that's the calculus that Democrats are trying to pull with it, I think, as they don't want to risk having Trump win in 2020 because the public views them as too zealous and/or a bunch of Commander Contrarians because of it.

Edited by ironballs16 on May 10th 2019 at 4:23:28 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#280270: May 10th 2019 at 1:23:27 PM

The response also undermines the rule of law, it codifies that the rules are different for rich people.

We just touched on Manning and how she’s been threatened with jail if she refuses to comply with the subpoena she’s been issued. Why the hell is Barr being subject to an objectively lesser punishment for the same (or perhaps a greater version of the same) crime?

Hell it’s not like arresting people isn’t being considered, one of the Dems on the senate intelligence committee has already come out in support of arresting Don Jr if he dodges the subpoena he’s been issued.

I really want someone to ask the House Dems responsible for this why they think Barr deserves a lesser punishment than any of us would get if we here found in contempt.

Edited by Silasw on May 10th 2019 at 8:24:52 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280271: May 10th 2019 at 1:23:42 PM

It's basically a mafia move. Trump is saying, "Nice stable government you have hear. SURE WOULD BE A SHAME IF SOMETHING HAPPENS TO IT."

And the Dems are seriously nodding along and going, "Yeah. Yeah, that would be a shame. I don't want that. Hmm.... How much did you say you were asking for?"

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 10th 2019 at 2:24:34 AM

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#280272: May 10th 2019 at 1:23:54 PM

I'm still confused as to how an arrest could be pulled off easier than the fine.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280273: May 10th 2019 at 1:25:02 PM

Because arrests are not optional.

How is that confusing?

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#280274: May 10th 2019 at 1:26:24 PM

Strictly speaking, neither is a fine. But I find it unlikely that the Trump administration doesn't somehow already have a safehouse prepared.

But maybe I just play too many video games.

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#280275: May 10th 2019 at 1:27:23 PM

The capital police answer to congress, they enter the department of justice, put cuffs on Barr and stick him in a cell (they may have some cells in the Capitol building especially for this I can’t remember), hell I'm pretty sure that the department of justice is protected by the capital police, they’d literally just have to go from the lobby where they’re stationed and into his office.

[up] You think Barr would go on the run? Shit man I don’t think so but I’d call that a win, the Attorney General going into hiding to avoid jail time, that’d make the point better than anything.

Edited by Silasw on May 10th 2019 at 8:30:00 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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