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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#280101: May 8th 2019 at 11:52:51 PM

Microtransactions meanwhile are another can of worms. It's scary how quickly the charges can add up.

From Cracked:

How Young Gamers Can Quietly Ruin Their Parents' Finances

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#280102: May 8th 2019 at 11:54:33 PM

@Wryte: By gachapon, you mean the gigantic mobile game industry that's had multiple high-profile cases of people dropping thousands of dollars and still not getting what they want?

It's been fun.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#280103: May 8th 2019 at 11:58:01 PM

No, they mean the vending machines.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#280104: May 9th 2019 at 12:00:47 AM

I'm aware, but I feel like the mobile game gacha system is more relevant to the discussion around video games and gambling. Trying to liken lootboxes to the vending machines is close to disingenuous.

It's been fun.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#280105: May 9th 2019 at 12:08:30 AM

Honestly the luck based claw machines and such being regulated as gambling isn’t the worst idea ever. Then we could maybe get skill based ones that don’t have random elements.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#280106: May 9th 2019 at 12:11:50 AM

It's not at all disingenuous. It's the exact same principle. You put money in, and get a semi-random reward out. Just because some unethical developers abuse the system doesn't make it inherently a bad one.

Nor are loot boxes inherently targeted at children. Again, some unethical developers do so, but this is not an inherent or unique problem with loot boxes.

[down] Gashapon vending machines. So, yes, exactly the same. Money in, semi-random result out. You are paying for a random figure. When I buy a loot box in Overwatch, I'm paying for a random assortment of cosmetic items. It's exactly the same.

It's late and I have to work tomorrow, so I'm going to leave this video from Extra Credits. It's from the aftermath of the Battlefront II debacle, and covers a range of potential legal issues with banning loot boxes, from criminalizing playing games with loot boxes to potentially classifying raid bosses in MMORPGS as loot boxes.

Edited by Wryte on May 9th 2019 at 12:29:23 PM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#280107: May 9th 2019 at 12:14:54 AM

[up]...except with vending machines, you know what you're getting because you picked it yourself, whole gacha games just make you roll the dice and you get what you're given.

So, no, not the same principle.

i'm tired, my friend
ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
a
#280108: May 9th 2019 at 12:27:04 AM

[up] I think we’re having a misunderstanding here; when vending machines were mentioned above, they were referring to gacha vending machines, which give a random toy/figure/phonestrap/whatever per roll. They’re entirely random, and are the reasons Japanese mobile games that have lootboxes are called gacha games, prime examples being Fate/Grand Order, Fire Emblem Heroes and Granblue Fantasy, to name a few.

Edited by ITNW1989 on May 9th 2019 at 12:28:07 PM

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#280109: May 9th 2019 at 12:28:12 AM

So what we're saying is that kids should be able to bankrupt their parents in video games because 20¢ vending machines exist.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#280110: May 9th 2019 at 12:30:06 AM

It's a similar principle, but the scale is very different. If I stop by a gachapon machine because I want to get an anime sticker, then I know I'll get an anime sticker. Maybe it won't be the character I want, but I can see all of what I'll get, and it's only like $1 for one. Gacha games tend to be stuffed with hundreds of literal trash items that serve no purpose except to be filler for the $30 roll you just bought, which is also the case for lootbox games. Sure, you can pour hours into Apex Legends hoping you'll get a cool skin for that character you love, but when you finally level up and open the lootbox, all you get is some crafting shards and a Steps Taken counter for Caustic.

It's been fun.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#280111: May 9th 2019 at 12:31:09 AM

[up]X5 Except it’s not some developers, it’s all of them. No developer that uses loot boxes labels them as the gambling that they are, that alone is an unethical abuse of them.

And they are target at children, the games have a recommenced age of children, normal T for teen or something. They should be Adult Only the same as porn games.

And yeah what you described is gambling, let’s limit that to casinos to.

Edit: Oh and just a warning for the Extra Credits video, be aware that they are industry insiders with a history of defending toxic practices within the gaming industry, including the horrific working conditions that many devs are subject to.

No shit they support loot boxes, they support all sorts of unethical shit.

Edited by Silasw on May 9th 2019 at 7:34:09 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
a
#280112: May 9th 2019 at 12:37:24 AM

I’m all for regulating games such as those, because at the end of the day, they’re gambling, if not worse, if only because they’re absolutely aimed at kids and teens, and as opposed to gambling in casinos, there’s never a promise of a monetary payout to possibly mitigate your expenses. And this from someone who has a not insignificant amount of money set aside every month for a gacha game.

Edited by ITNW1989 on May 9th 2019 at 12:38:56 PM

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#280113: May 9th 2019 at 12:50:36 AM

It's a similar principle, but the scale is very different. If I stop by a gachapon machine because I want to get an anime sticker, then I know I'll get an anime sticker. Maybe it won't be the character I want, but I can see all of what I'll get, and it's only like $1 for one. Gacha games tend to be stuffed with hundreds of literal trash items that serve no purpose except to be filler for the $30 roll you just bought, which is also the case for lootbox games. Sure, you can pour hours into Apex Legends hoping you'll get a cool skin for that character you love, but when you finally level up and open the lootbox, all you get is some crafting shards and a Steps Taken counter for Caustic.

And if I buy an Overwatch loot box, I know I'll get four pieces of cosmetic Overwatch stuff.

And if you don't like Gacha games, again, video games are a 100% luxury item. Just don't play them. Unless you're making a slippery slope argument that one day every game in existence is going to be using gacha mechanics, I don't see the problem.

Except it’s not some developers, it’s all of them. No developer that uses loot boxes labels them as the gambling that they are, that alone is an unethical abuse of them.

Do blind bag figures need to come with the word "GAMBLING" printed on top of the package, too? I seriously don't even understand what you're getting at.

And they are target at children, the games have a recommenced age of children, normal T for teen or something. They should be Adult Only the same as porn games.

First, I feel compelled to point out that the only games that actually have "Adult Only" ratings are porn games. And E for Everyone is the kid-friendly rating.

The ESRB rating system is notoriously arbitrary about how it rates games as appropriate for which age groups, and even then, all it does is tell you the minimum age for which a game is appropriate; not the age at which it's targeted. Yes, loot box systems do appear in games targeted at kids, but not exclusively. The ideal target for loot boxes is the same as the ideal target for any other frivolous waste of money: young adults with their own income and few financial responsibilities. Yes, some developers try to trick kids into spending their parents' money, and I'm in favor of regulations to combat that, but banning loot boxes entirely is not necessary for that.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#280114: May 9th 2019 at 1:00:56 AM

And if you don't like Gacha games, again, video games are a 100% luxury item. Just don't play them.

Really? The Don't Like? Don't Read! argument? Not only is this a blatant dodge, but as the people who don't like gacha games already aren't playing them, while those who do are still spending hundreds of dollars or more (of someone else's money, in some cases), this does not solve the problem.

At this point I'm beginning to doubt that you're arguing in good faith.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on May 9th 2019 at 4:05:32 AM

i'm tired, my friend
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#280115: May 9th 2019 at 1:03:17 AM

Getting a bit offtopic, I think...

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280116: May 9th 2019 at 6:52:34 AM

Trump and his cronies just made an attempt at bringing down pharmaceutical costs.

The new policy will require pharma companies to include the list price of their drugs in any advertisement. The purpose is to effectively shame pharmaceutical companies into lowering their prices via transparency in competition. "Those guys are charging $5 for my $500 drug? Shit, I need to lower my prices now that everyone can see that."

Not having the same confidence in a free market that the right has, I personally fear it may have the opposite effect. "Those guys are charging $500 for my $5 drug? Shit, I need to jack up my prices. I didn't realize people would be willing to pay that!" But we'll see what happens, I suppose.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 9th 2019 at 7:53:23 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#280117: May 9th 2019 at 7:12:55 AM

Can we even argue that much of the American right-wing actually has confidence in a free market? <points @ tariffs on China> Because that looks like mercantilism from several angles. And, I've waded through too much praise of it in random comment sections to feel comfortable.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#280118: May 9th 2019 at 7:13:31 AM

Transparency is good, but I'm sure these guys know the prices their competitors are putting out already.

I expect no significant impact, personally.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280119: May 9th 2019 at 7:39:01 AM

In other news, my city just overwhelmingly voted against giving homeless people the "Right to Survive". A Denver measure that would overturn anti-camping laws and make it legal for homeless people to exist in people's vicinity was defeated in a landslide vote. Denver citizens voted overwhelmingly to keep the homeless out of public spaces.

But what voters did like was the other bill to decriminalize psychedelic shrooms, which passed by about a 3% margin. "F*ck you, gimme drugs."

Goddammit, Colorado.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 9th 2019 at 8:40:02 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#280120: May 9th 2019 at 7:49:45 AM

This is the kind of hyper-selfishness that makes people so easy to radicalize.

i'm tired, my friend
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#280121: May 9th 2019 at 7:53:07 AM

Yeah, that’s the kind of measure that needs the government officials to pass it directly. One thing I know about people is that, even if there is a real problem, they’ll set it up so that it’s as hidden as possible if it doesn’t directly harm them. See also: Hostile architecture.

My musician page
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#280122: May 9th 2019 at 8:00:07 AM

NIMBY raises its head again.

It's pretty common in California too. Gotta keep those property values up.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#280123: May 9th 2019 at 8:00:28 AM

Yeah. The Right to Survive Initiative failed by 81.2% to 18.8% at the polls.

In retrospect, I think I understand where it went wrong. As things stand now, Denver and many other cities have anti-camping ordinance. The way it works is that if you are sleeping, resting for too long, or visibly wearing a blanket in a public place, a police officer will collect you and direct you to a homeless shelter or other designated Homeless People location. Refusal to go results in a citation being issued.

Right to Survive would have allowed for camping, eating, rest, etc. in public places. The purpose of this is to eliminate the out-of-sight, out-of-mind phenomenon among the middle and upper class. Many people are not motivated to solve a problem if it doesn't influence their lives in some way; allowing camping in public areas makes the homeless problem visible.

It's the same logic that protests and other acts of civil disobedience run on: put the human suffering on display, force people to witness it, make it disruptive to their lives, and suddenly you have a lot more people declaring it a problem in need of solving. Anti-camping ordinance sweeps the homeless under society's rug. It allows the well-off to engage with them strictly as an abstract idea and not as real human beings.

But the problem is that this attempt was made at city-level. Which means the people voting on it are the same people whose lives we are trying to disrupt by permitting camping. That the middle and upper class would ultimately vote to preserve the social blinders is kind of obvious in retrospect.

This is classic "51% votes to eat the other 49%".

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 9th 2019 at 9:02:23 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#280124: May 9th 2019 at 8:14:15 AM

Re: Trump's pharmaceutical "price control"

This is idiotic. What this will promote is further cartelization of the industry where prices are collaboratively set by a commission of pharmaceutical reps behind closed doors. Anyone who tries to deliberately undercut the prices will be immediately acquired, since anti-trust law is so lax already.

And I say this as a person who works in Pharma — albeit in contract research and new R&D, rather than at Big Pharma — this policy represents a fundamental misunderstanding of how the industry works.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on May 9th 2019 at 11:16:23 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#280125: May 9th 2019 at 9:07:26 AM

[up]I think that's kind of the point. Trump didn't come up with this in a vacuum. And, he's crap at actual business.

Somebody wants cartel control. And, I'd look in Mitch's general direction on that one.

Edited by Euodiachloris on May 9th 2019 at 5:08:20 PM


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