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Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#279876: May 7th 2019 at 2:03:27 PM

Garcon has the right idea, we live in the real world, and the best way to stop Trump and the GOP is to win.

Name any bad Trump policy. Any at all. Impeachment proceedings won't do shit to stop them. If anything, they'll embolden him after, and (most importantly) give Trump ammo to work towards another term of awful.

[down]Or, impeachment failure could demoralize the base, rally the other side, and turn off independents. Like it did the last time.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on May 7th 2019 at 6:04:32 AM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#279877: May 7th 2019 at 2:03:43 PM

The way its been explained to me: It would get public attention on Trump's crimes and a constant barrage of bad press for him. Ideally, this would sour swing voters on him even if the Senate clears him, giving us an edge in 2020.

Its a roundabout way of using legal process to do to Trump what Fox News did to Clinton.

Edited by Parable on May 7th 2019 at 2:04:12 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#279878: May 7th 2019 at 2:04:55 PM

Except it'll turn right back around to bite Democrats on the butt when it fails.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#279879: May 7th 2019 at 2:05:35 PM

Shots fired at a school in a Denver suburb, reports of injuries are coming in.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/07/us/colorado-denver-area-school-shooting/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#279880: May 7th 2019 at 2:05:44 PM

This isn't "falling on our sword", this is fighting a hopeless battle because it NEEDS to be fought. Because not fighting that battle makes us look like cowards and makes our enemy look right.

If we don't try to impeach Trump, that sends the message that he was telling the truth, and he did nothing illegal and his Presidency was completely legitimate. The Democrats look like fools and cowards who wasted their time chasing a pipe dream and slandering a good man for nothing.

If we do try to impeach Trump and the Senate Republicans stop us, that sends the message that Trump did do something illegal and he deserves to be in jail, and that the Republican party is complicit in his crimes and they are just as guilty as he is. The Democrats look brave and strong, with justice on their side, they just were stopped because the Republicans are traitors.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#279881: May 7th 2019 at 2:07:41 PM

Trump surviving impeachment will send all those same messages not impeaching him would, only louder and while hobbling the Democrats' ability to do anything about it.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#279882: May 7th 2019 at 2:08:24 PM

If we do try to impeach Trump and the Senate Republicans stop us, that sends the message that Trump did do something illegal and he deserves to be in jail, and that the Republican party is complicit in his crimes and they are just as guilty as he is. The Democrats look brave and strong, with justice on their side, they just were stopped because the Republicans are traitors.

There is no guarantee that that will be the dominant narrative. It could very well be seen as an acquittal, and the Democrats could be viewed as overreacting and/or as failures by their base and voters at large.

[down][awesome]

Edited by Rationalinsanity on May 7th 2019 at 6:09:37 AM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#279883: May 7th 2019 at 2:08:37 PM

Only a fool or a desperate man fights in a hopeless battle and expects to win,at best he'll limp away minus an or arm leg at worse he'll be overwhlmed before he even get his sword out

Better to live to fight another day then get drawn into a battle you can't win

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#279884: May 7th 2019 at 2:10:54 PM

There is no being a doomed moral victor here.

The only moral thing to do is to win and to help people. Symbolic messages mean nothing to the bottom line.

Bluntly, I think that if you're more interested in sending messages than actually helping people in crisis then that says a lot about what your true values are.

Edited by LeGarcon on May 7th 2019 at 5:12:49 AM

Oh really when?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#279885: May 7th 2019 at 2:11:00 PM

For starters, I am not sure if impeachment would do more harm than good. A lot of people believe this because Nixon and Clinton both got a surge in popularity after being put under investigation BUT this is not the same situation. Nixon was already in his second term when the truth about the matter blew up and became truly public knowledge instead of it being some petty investigation the democrats insisted on to fill their pockets and in Clinton's case a huge issue was that a lot of people felt that Star overstepped when he turned an investigation into Clinton's financial dealings into an investigation of his affairs. Neither is the case this time around. Trump is guilty as sin and the investigation actually has lead to a lot of people turning against him.

And what about the optics? Is it really "better" to have a situation in which the Democrats help Trump to stay in office? Because that's how a lot of voters will see it.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#279886: May 7th 2019 at 2:12:29 PM

To go with [up][up] symbolic messages are worthless when nothing's backing up the symbols.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#279887: May 7th 2019 at 2:14:47 PM

And words are meaningless if the Democrats don't follow the law in that matter. They can all say that they would lose anyway or that they can't do anything, the optics will tell a different story.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#279888: May 7th 2019 at 2:15:40 PM

So what happens when we do follow the law and then he's lawfully exonerated?

Impeachment failing will be the legitimate and lawful conclusion of the proceedings, disgusting as it is to say.

Edited by LeGarcon on May 7th 2019 at 5:18:21 AM

Oh really when?
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#279889: May 7th 2019 at 2:16:45 PM

They are following the law where they can. That's what this while mess with Barr is about.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#279890: May 7th 2019 at 2:17:37 PM

Guys, there's no point continuing this debate any further: everyone already said their piece and we're all running in circles.

We should all shelf this in until the situation develops a bit more.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279891: May 7th 2019 at 2:17:43 PM

I can’t see any scenario where a failed impeachment plays well for the democrats. It’s going to be political suicide even at best. The moral victory won’t be worth a damn thing with an ascendant Republican Party and four more years of Trump.

I mean, the vast majority of the country really doesn’t have a clue how impeachment works. When it fails, the message to them is going to be that Trump is cleared on all charges.

They should have sent a poet.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#279892: May 7th 2019 at 2:19:35 PM

Impeachment is not a trial. Once Trump is out of office he will have to face the courts one way or another.

[up] Again, you are assuming that it will strengthen the Republicans. I am not sure that it will. You sound like the Hollywood executive who keeps claiming that female lead movies always fail. Having explained again and again to the public that the president is a criminal and the republicans and the republicans alone refuse to do something about it could swing the election just as well in the other direction. Because this time there is ample proof that he did it.

Edited by Swanpride on May 7th 2019 at 2:22:03 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279893: May 7th 2019 at 2:21:44 PM

[up] Sure, all of us here know how impeachment works. Does your average person on the street? Do you trust Fox to explain the process clearly?

Like I said, when (not if) impeachment fails the message that’s broadcast to the public will be that Trump is innocent. That’s the message he’s going to send out, that’s what the right wing media is going to send out, and you can bet that’s what most people are going to believe.

Also, have we really descended to the point of calling people we don’t agree with sexists? Come on.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 7th 2019 at 2:22:47 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#279895: May 7th 2019 at 2:23:55 PM

On one hand, Cohen is a liar. On the other, I can sooooo believe this.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#279896: May 7th 2019 at 2:24:29 PM

[up][up][up] This is not about Fox. You won't get the Trumpists to change their mind, one way or another. in order to win in 2020, you need to get people who usually don't vote to the ballot boxes and vote democrat (and you need to keep as many people as possible who are Republicans away). You won't manage that if there is not party which fights for them. But you might manage if you enrage them enough about the notion that there is a crook in the white house. One which robs them left and right.

Edited by Swanpride on May 7th 2019 at 2:24:41 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279897: May 7th 2019 at 2:26:10 PM

[up] And you can do that without blowing every last bit of your political capital on an impeachment that’s doomed to fail from the start.

I’d love it if the Democrats went for it, but I can’t in good conscience say that a moral stand is worth people’s lives.

They should have sent a poet.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#279898: May 7th 2019 at 2:28:14 PM

[up][up]I don’t trust the non-Fox news venues to spell out the implications of the impeachment proceedings with enough weight either, though.

My musician page
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#279899: May 7th 2019 at 3:16:44 PM

I have to, once again, request the impeachment question be refrained on. We got into "eating our own" territory last time and it seems like a retread once more.


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