TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

razorrozar7 Migrated to Chloe Jessica! from Chloe Jessica Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Migrated to Chloe Jessica!
#279801: May 7th 2019 at 6:07:44 AM

[up]Right. Even if all cops aren't bastards directly, they still are by proxy. The problems are so endemic to the system that no one involved is completely innocent.

The point isn't that there aren't good people who are cops. I'm a firm believer in Rousseau Was Right - I think most people are basically good. The point is that even the good people stand by and allow evil to happen.

e: fuck, pagetopper. i promise this is actually relevant this time and im not shoehorning my views about cops into an unrelated conversation again.

Edited by razorrozar7 on May 7th 2019 at 6:08:38 AM

Migrated to Chloe Jessica!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#279802: May 7th 2019 at 6:10:24 AM

tbh, im of the opinion that there's not really any point trying to appeal to anyone who hasn't already been convinced not to vote for trump. if everything he's done hasn't alienated them already, nothing is going to. i think its more a matter of picking the candidate that's going to motivate the most democrats and leftists to get out and vote.

So if I understand correctly, you a) consider it good electoral policy to burn votes on candidates you know, by your own admission, can't win and b) don't want the party to waste time courting new votes.

All due respect, but I'm glad that the DNC does not agree with you. That sounds like a surefire trip to four more years of Trump.

Also you may be interested to know about the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. Many states have passed legislation (and other states are pending legislation) that would peg their electoral votes to the national popular vote.

This legislation goes into effect once the Compact has 270 electoral votes pegged to it (until then, EC business as usual). As 270 is the unbeatable majority required to win the election, this would effectively abolish the Electoral College without having to pass a Constitutional Amendment to do so.

The Compact is currently sitting at 189 electoral votes, with another 127 votes' worth of states currently discussing passing it. There is a real chance that by the time 2020 rolls around, the concept of "state so blue, it can't possibly fail to go Democrat" won't exist anymore; every vote in every state will be counted.

Oregon, incidentally, is one of those states still debating the Compact. So if that sounds interesting to you, write your state legislators and let them know that they should pass it.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 7th 2019 at 7:12:03 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#279803: May 7th 2019 at 6:12:49 AM

Perhaps I should clarify my point: when I said "supporting the police", I meant in the sense of defending the institution and standing by it when so much of it us flawed, rather than cracking down on its issues and reforming it.

And God knows there are a lot of issues.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279804: May 7th 2019 at 6:14:38 AM

[up]x3, [up]x4 See, I’m not even sure that’s accurate. Hundreds of officers are fired for misconduct every year, with the numbers steadily climbing due to public scrutiny. Of course, the only stories that receive any kind of attention are the ones that generate outrage. A cop engaging in criminal misconduct and then being promptly fired isn’t front page news.

Are there a lot of very serious issues with policing in the US? Yes, of course. That ACAB mentality isn’t doing anyone any favors though, it’s just hardening the us vs. then conditioning that’s the root cause of those issues in the beginning.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 7th 2019 at 6:16:46 AM

They should have sent a poet.
razorrozar7 Migrated to Chloe Jessica! from Chloe Jessica Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Migrated to Chloe Jessica!
#279805: May 7th 2019 at 6:17:11 AM

[up][up][up]i was aware of that, but not that oregon hadn't passed it, so i appreciate the tips and ill get on writing to my reps once my and my girlfriend's living situation settles down a little bit. (im not even sure who my rep is at the moment, because we're not sure exactly where we're going to end up living.)

also, i promise im capable of assimilating and adapting to new information. if the situation were to change such that my vote *would* matter, then i would change my intentions accordingly. if i have to hold my nose and vote for biden or o'rourke or even harris, i will. i was saying that as things stand i have no problem burning my vote rather than supporting a capitalist.

Edited by razorrozar7 on May 7th 2019 at 6:17:42 AM

Migrated to Chloe Jessica!
singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#279806: May 7th 2019 at 6:20:11 AM

It's a mistake to tar every police precinct with the same brush - as the saying goes, all happy families are alike, but all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way. There won't be a one size fits all approach.

I think though a good starting point would be to look at the origin of each precinct - there is probably a lot of institutional memory from when law enforcement was the only arm of the government in many places, and so did have to have some distance from the population it was policing - which is very much against Peelian Principles of Policing by Consent.

I mean, one question I always have is why do some sheriffs get elected in the US? I assume there is a historical reason for it and one that is probably fair for it's day, but is it appropriate today?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#279807: May 7th 2019 at 6:27:57 AM

Police in the U.S. are one of the examples of how unionization can harm social goals, because unions are fundamentally conservative institutions whose role, in this case, is to make it harder to fire bad cops. It's not just about civil rights violations, but police forces adopting a siege mentality wherein they view themselves as continually under attack from the community and the press. "We all hang together or we all hang separately," and so forth.

This would be the case regardless of what they are protecting, whether it be racist cops who harass and kill minorities or minority cops who are harassed by racist civilians. It's a double-edged sword, and I don't think the solution is to dissolve and rebuild them from the ground up.

Rather, we've seen how changes to hiring and training practices, replacing leadership, increased emphasis on community relations, and even changes to laws can make a big difference. The problem is that this often comes down to the legislative will of the jurisdictions in which those police units operate, and given the red-blue distribution of our maps...

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279808: May 7th 2019 at 6:28:58 AM

[up][up] Historically, the areas covered by sheriff’s departments were lightly populated and had almost no other government. The sheriff was basically the mayor of these areas as well as being in charge of law enforcement, hence the elections.

Speaking as a former deputy that’s a bit of tradition I’d like to see thrown in the bin. It’s not relevant in the modern US and just causes trouble.

[up] Training is absolutely the place for improvement. From day one a tendency towards profiling and a siege mentality is beaten into officers, leading to almost inevitable conflict with the public, and like I said above departments that have adopted community policing curriculums have seen massive improvements.

[down] No offense taken at all. You’ve been unfailingly polite if anything, considering the potential for raising tempers these discussions tend to have. I’ll also add that I think highly critical viewpoints are very important when it comes to reforming law enforcement, even if I don’t always necessarily agree with them. It’s something I’m always glad to discuss.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 7th 2019 at 6:37:23 AM

They should have sent a poet.
razorrozar7 Migrated to Chloe Jessica! from Chloe Jessica Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Migrated to Chloe Jessica!
#279809: May 7th 2019 at 6:31:33 AM

[up]i didnt realize you were former LEO and i want you to know that nothing i said was meant to be construed as a personal attack.

Migrated to Chloe Jessica!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#279810: May 7th 2019 at 7:28:01 AM

From my less-experienced ig'nant white-trash hick perspective, I also think proper training is crucial. I think mindset is a big problem with LEOs; particularly, the military mindset.

As a soldier, your passive job is to threat-analyze for enemies and your active job is to shoot those enemies until they die. You're here to protect your country by neutralizing threats to it by force.

As an LEO, your passive job is to inspire a feeling of safety and security in the public and your active job is to defuse criminal activity in progress.

I believe that both Cowboy Cop action movies and the military-to-police pipeline have contributed to an attitude among some police that is essentially, "I got mah gun, LET'S GO SHOOT SOME BAD GUYS, OO-RAH!" Every trigger-happy officer thinks he's Die Hard's John McClane.

Hell, I still remember when former Supreme Court Justice Scalia, may he rot, cited Jack F*cking Bauer from the hit TV series "24" to defend the Bush Administration's use of the Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique.

Justice Scalia responded with a defense of Agent Bauer, arguing that law enforcement officials deserve latitude in times of great crisis. “Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles…. He saved hundreds of thousands of lives,” Judge Scalia reportedly said. “Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?” He then posed a series of questions to his fellow judges: “Say that criminal law is against him? ‘You have the right to a jury trial?’ Is any jury going to convict Jack Bauer?”

“I don’t think so,” Scalia reportedly answered himself. “So the question is really whether we believe in these absolutes. And ought we believe in these absolutes.”

This man held a seat on the highest Judiciary in the United States for thirty years, and this is how he thinks. What hope does some aspiring kid who wants to be a cop but only knows police procedure from Die Hard have to actually get this shit right? Without proper training, that kid's basically a "Police shot a black man 17 times in a Walmart grocery aisle because he was holding a child's toy" headline waiting to happen.

Too many people think a cop's job is to have high-speed chases and shoot bad guys. And too many of those people are cops, waiting for their moment to be the hero and take down a terrorist threat or break up a crime syndicate.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 7th 2019 at 8:33:58 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279811: May 7th 2019 at 7:44:47 AM

[up] I’d honestly say the training is the majority of the issue.

Take traffic stops, for example. They’re one of the most dangerous LEO interactions for civilians. They’re dangerous for officers too, though more due to the fact the officer has to stand out in traffic than anything else. When they train officers to do traffic stops, the first thing they do is show you hours of video of officers being assaulted or killed by the drivers of vehicles they’ve pulled over. This is considered standard practice. Before the officer has even left the academy they’ve been conditioned to expect violence from the driver, and then someone reaches into their glovebox funny and they just start blasting.

The training emphasizes that the public is your enemy. They tell you to always stand with your back to the wall, to never take your lunches in public, even to keep a hand on your gun while using a public restroom. That attitude is the number one thing that gets people killed.

They should have sent a poet.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#279812: May 7th 2019 at 7:54:57 AM

It's more than that...part of it is the media. I mean, look at American cop shows, especially the ones from the 1970s to 1990s. A lot of them portray being a cop as about people who do high adrenaline chases and storm a building brandishing a gun. There are a few exceptions - Cagney and Lacey comes to mind - but the majority of the show portray this idea of this close knit society in which the internal investigation is always the enemy for making an already difficult job even more difficult.

Basically American cops are already trained in a specific way before they even enter the police academy. And once they do, the main emphasis is put on "protect yourself and your partner" and not on "this is how you de-escalate a difficult situation".

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#279813: May 7th 2019 at 8:16:34 AM

I believe CHiPs also portrayed police officers in a positive light. One trivia item stated that during the course of the whole series, the two main characters never drew their weapons. Not being well-versed in the series, I can't say whether that's accurate, but if so that's pretty impressive.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#279814: May 7th 2019 at 8:25:02 AM

nancy "still a corporate Democrat" "trump isn't worth impeaching" "i did the bare minimum i had to to keep trump from winning and people are sucking my dick for it" pelosi?

Nancy Pelosi was one of the first people to join the Progressive Caucus, she opposed the Democratic Party's adoption of neoliberalism, and she supported a public option for the ACA (which was very radical for the time) while also being instrumental to its passing.

People who act like Nancy Pelosi is a faux-progressive know absolutely nothing about what they're talking about, I wouldn't listen if I were you.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#279815: May 7th 2019 at 8:32:37 AM

[up][tup]

But wait, she's "Establishment" and therefore evil.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#279816: May 7th 2019 at 8:32:55 AM

I remember watching an episode of a show which portrayed the training of prison guards in Mississippi and my reaction was literally "what the hell"? They were being yelled at, like they were military officers, told to always expect the worst from the prisoners.

Life is unfair...
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#279817: May 7th 2019 at 8:33:52 AM

Yeah, the problem with the far left channels is that they tend to be Fox news in reverse...sometimes they even have the SAME talking points like Fox, because they care more about opposing the establishment than reporting the truth.

[up] Honestly, Police academy was already kind of a culture shock for me. The notion that regular police officers are trained to run though some sort of fake city and decide within seconds if they should shot a target or not...wth!!! I am not saying that this can't be a useful skill in specific situations, but in my book those are situations for which you call the special units.

Edited by Swanpride on May 7th 2019 at 8:36:31 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279818: May 7th 2019 at 8:50:17 AM

I’m not sure media is a significant factor, considering that police in other countries and more dependable departments in the US are able to get good results, even with recruits that have still consumed all that same media.

Firearms training is IMO an ugly reality of having armed police. Departments that just do range qualifications have way more problems with shootings than departments that do tactical simulations.

They should have sent a poet.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#279819: May 7th 2019 at 9:02:10 AM

[up]I think you missed the point. That being "don't have all police armed, but have fully-trained, certificated-to-their-eyeballs armed units answerable to a host of checks and balances on standby".

Even in the US, most police won't encounter guns in the field every day of the week if they don't have them themselves.

Edited by Euodiachloris on May 7th 2019 at 5:03:35 PM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279820: May 7th 2019 at 9:07:18 AM

[up] Technically, as you point out, every officer does encounter a gun every day, that gun being their own. Would it be better if only a small number of officers carried? Sure. But unfortunately out of necessity every officer carries, which means they all need the training. Shoot-no shoot training is critical for anyone carrying a firearm, the “100 rounds and done” certification many officers receive is simply not sufficient.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 7th 2019 at 9:14:35 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#279821: May 7th 2019 at 9:19:12 AM

@Fourthspartan 56

It should be obvious by now that what it means to be progressive has shifted to the left of Nancy Pelosi.

Far enough that she can be seen as in opposition to some progressive positions.

I’m also curious as to what you mean when you say that she opposed neo-liberalism. I can’t really think of anything policy wise that she was involved in that really emphasizes that, save maybe some trust busting stuff I vaguely remember her being involved with.

Edited by Mio on May 7th 2019 at 12:21:14 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#279822: May 7th 2019 at 9:39:31 AM

@Archonspeaks Except that police officers in other countries DON'T consume the same kind of media. Yes, they watch the US shows, too, but crime shows are pretty much the easiest thing you can create, and pretty much every country has their own ones. And they tend to look very different from the American ones and usually put a greater emphasis on either the investigation or the "help the community" aspect.

Just compare British made crime shows with American made ones, and you will already see the difference. Same with German made ones (Fun fact: Another word for Police officer is in Germany "Schutzmann" which translates literally to "protection man" and the police is supposed to be your "Friend and helper"). Same with Scandinavian ones.

And I am not saying that this the main reason, but it is the main aspect of it. There is a "they vs us" mentality, which isn't really all that common in the countries in which the police is barely firing their guns in any given year.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#279823: May 7th 2019 at 9:48:10 AM

[up] Which ties into the issue of Gun Regulation I think.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279824: May 7th 2019 at 9:48:19 AM

[up][up] It’s not that media isn’t an issue, I just can’t see it being a significant issue. British police shows can be pretty gung-ho in their own way, and even accounting for differences in local television people are still going to be seeing lots of American movies and shows. As I mentioned, there’s also the fact that more progressive training schemes make a big difference even in the US.

Changing the media portrayal of police is a good idea, but if we really want to stop the bleeding we need to reconsider the way we train officers in the US.

[up] That’s definitely something that could use some work. Too many people see guns as quick and easy problem solvers, and they’re certainly portrayed that way on screen.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 7th 2019 at 9:49:31 AM

They should have sent a poet.

Total posts: 417,856
Top