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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#279526: May 5th 2019 at 1:29:20 AM

Worth remembering that the Senate favours conservative policies by virtue of its distribution, and that most voters vote for one party not because they like it but because they dislike the other more. By this token, running more moderate candidates is more likely to reduce the turnout of the other side.

Of course, this might be wrong ... but nobody has offered evidence to the contrary.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#279527: May 5th 2019 at 1:33:19 AM

I don’t think anyone is saying we can’t do two things at once. What Pelosi is saying though is her strategy for keeping or expanding our control of the House. Whatever Biden or Sanders or Harris or even Hickenlooper do as the presidential candidate will be different no matter what.

And I think something that is getting lost here is that Pelosi’s plan applies to battleground districts. Just getting these places from red or purple to blue is moving the Oven Window. What happens in deep blue districts is another story. The House isn’t going to be devoid of progressive or leftist members from there. Especially not if AOC is still planning to primary the safe reps who have been coasting by because they had a D next to their name on the ballot.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#279528: May 5th 2019 at 2:47:11 AM

And that Overton window isn't going to shift itself

It may not be shifting itself but it has shifted, as much as we say Biden is running a campaign like it’s the ‘90s he’s not, has Biden spoken about being “tough on crime”? Has Biden agreed to compromise with Republicans and federally ban gay marriage? Has Biden accepted the existence of a healthcare situation where insurers can deny coverage because of pre-existing conditions?

The window has moved from the ‘90s and neither Biden or Pelosi are trying to take us back here, it’s also moved massively since ‘08, I’m pretty sure neither democrat candidate supported gay marriage in ‘08, yet in this primary we have a married gay man running and anyone who said his marriage should be taken from him would be run out of the party.

Yes Biden is the more moderate candidate, but that alone shows how far we’ve come, Biden would have been to Hillary’s left if he’d run in 2016, now he’s the furthest right we’ve got, that’s the window shifting.

Biden doesn’t have much in the way of policy and plans out, but I’d bet a good chunk of money that what he has out is both to the right/center of what other candidates now have out and to the left of what Obama put out in 2008 and 2012, you remember Obama right, the candidate from the party’s left who bought about change.

We’ve made progress and are continuing to do so even under the most moderate plan, but this country has a long way to go.

Thing is, that same logic rarely gets applied to moderate voters.

Moderate voters aren’t democrats, they have no loyalty to the idea of betting people’s lives, thus why the argument of fall in line doesn’t work with them.

Edited by Silasw on May 5th 2019 at 9:48:08 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#279529: May 5th 2019 at 6:45:01 AM

This is the tug-of-war rope that represents our country's Overton Window.

Far Left ................——mud————————....Far Right

If this spot ^ is where you're standing, you might feel very good about yourself for how far from the mud you are. But you're not actually helping us pull as much as you think you are.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#279530: May 5th 2019 at 7:22:04 AM

[up][up]I'd question whether a hypothetical Biden run in 2016 would have actually been to the Left of Hillary considering both of their political histories, but that's neither here nor there.

What I want to point out is that while the overton window for the Republican Party has been pushed to the right, and much further and much faster then it has for the Democratic Party. In that sense the overton window in general has not really moved, the parties have simply been polarizing and radicalizing, more so the Republicans then the Democrats.

It is not a guarantee that this push to the left will remain, particularly not when varies elites, even on the side of the Democrats would prefer not to. History has shown that the center will tend to capitulate towards which ever side is the least threat to the status quo, and history has shown that that is universal the right, from bog standard conservatism all the way to Fascism.

[up]That assumes that the people nearer the center want the help of those further left and aren't actually ideologically opposed to them as well, which I think is much more likely then a lot of people here would care to admit.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#279531: May 5th 2019 at 7:38:18 AM

I'd rather that instead of paying people for votes, we just move elections to a Sunday.

These are two completely different issues.

Gillibrand does not support giving them money to make them voters, she supports giving them money to make them donors.

Reforms to make voting easier are great but are very much different issues entirely.

It is not a guarantee that this push to the left will remain, particularly not when varies elites, even on the side of the Democrats would prefer not to. History has shown that the center will tend to capitulate towards which ever side is the least threat to the status quo, and history has shown that that is universal the right, from bog standard conservatism all the way to Fascism.

Nothing is guaranteed, stating that means very little.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 5th 2019 at 7:39:35 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#279532: May 5th 2019 at 7:50:16 AM

[up]That's not really the point I was trying to make with that paragraph.

My point was that given how staked things are against the Left there must be a consistent and strong effort to push a leftist message, which is something that the more Moderate Democrats don't want to do or may even actively undermine either for strategic or ideological reasons.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#279533: May 5th 2019 at 8:12:09 AM

Mueller is set to testify 10 days from now.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#279534: May 5th 2019 at 8:20:19 AM

My point was that given how staked things are against the Left there must be a consistent and strong effort to push a leftist message, which is something that the more Moderate Democrats don't want to do or may even actively undermine either for strategic or ideological reasons.

Yes, and that's the Left's job.

Pelosi's job is to support the interests of the party, which means moderate candidates in red districts. Which I really remind everyone are significantly better than red candidates in red districts.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#279535: May 5th 2019 at 9:34:18 AM

The democrats could use moving a little bit more to the left.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#279536: May 5th 2019 at 9:42:12 AM

The democrats could use moving a little bit more to the left.

As someone who enthusiastically supports Medicare for All I completely agree.

Just that I understand why Pelosi would support moderates.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#279537: May 5th 2019 at 9:54:04 AM

The country could use more moving to the left.

That doesn't happen overnight.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#279538: May 5th 2019 at 10:37:49 AM

Yeah, from an European Perspective, the choice between Democrats and Republicans isn't really Left vs Right. It's more Moderate Right vs Far Right.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#279539: May 5th 2019 at 10:44:08 AM

Yeah, from an European Perspective, the choice between Democrats and Republicans isn't really Left vs Right. It's more Moderate Right vs Far Right.

Which has always been bullshit, the Democratic Party is a big tent coalition. There are moderate right members and there are further left social democrats (the non-neoliberal type).

This meme that the Democrats are all right wing by "European" standards really should needs to die.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 5th 2019 at 10:44:25 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#279540: May 5th 2019 at 10:44:38 AM

Is it really at this point considering how much traction the far has in Europe now?

Oh really when?
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#279541: May 5th 2019 at 10:46:12 AM

[up][up]Agreed. Some words mean different things in different places.

America isn't Europe. Applying your standards and left and right-wing to us doesn't work.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on May 5th 2019 at 1:46:23 PM

i'm tired, my friend
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#279542: May 5th 2019 at 10:53:41 AM

Or centre vs the far right, depending on which democrat is in power. Hell, even the ones which are identified as "far left" are often more centre left in my book. And with the Republicans systematically moving the overton window to the right, it is high time to push it back in the other direction. Remember, healthcare for all used to be something the Republicans were pushing for.

Edited by Swanpride on May 5th 2019 at 10:54:53 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#279543: May 5th 2019 at 11:01:14 AM

Agreed. Some words mean different things in different places.

America isn't Europe. Applying your standards and left and right-wing to us doesn't work.

This really can't be emphasized enough.

The US is different, for example, universal healthcare. There is a massive difference between supporting an existing universal healthcare system (center right) and supporting the creation of an entirely new healthcare system (left-wing if not outright far-left).

Just because the Tories support (in word only) the NHS does not mean that they're as left-wing as the Democratic Party, it means they exist in a society where universal healthcare is the norm and thus Conservatives have to at-lest grudgingly support it.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#279544: May 5th 2019 at 11:02:45 AM

The Republicans furiously oppose the ACA, which is really just a subsidy for insurance companies.

So yeah, I may be a moderate on the center-left, but by all means push that Overton window. Just do that and win at the same time, ok?tongue

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#279545: May 5th 2019 at 11:15:31 AM

So the trade talks are going nowhere apparently, so Trump is raising the tariffs again. Anyone planning on doing some shopping soon better get it done before those get slapped on.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#279546: May 5th 2019 at 11:25:19 AM

For [up] context:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1125069835044573186

For 10 months, China has been paying Tariffs to the USA of 25% on 50 Billion Dollars of High Tech, and 10% on 200 Billion Dollars of other goods. These payments are partially responsible for our great economic results. The 10% will go up to 25% on Friday. 325 Billions Dollars....

....of additional goods sent to us by China remain untaxed, but will be shortly, at a rate of 25%. The Tariffs paid to the USA have had little impact on product cost, mostly borne by China. The Trade Deal with China continues, but too slowly, as they attempt to renegotiate. No!

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#279547: May 5th 2019 at 11:27:58 AM

Biden wants to court the Clintonian-Era democratic platforms. He's not going young like Bernie but the "classic" Democrat voters.

Middle-aged and above.

Well, he's more likely to get actual votes from them. The question is, will he get enough?
the best answer to “If not now, when?” would be “After we win”.
[awesome]
part of the issue is that a lot of us thought we had already "won" in 2018.
I still count 2018 as a loss.
Just that I understand why Pelosi would support moderates.
Running a moderate candidate somewhere like Alabama or Kentucky or Wyoming - they are considered the radical left-wing candidates there. While we're all criticizing them for not being left-wing enough.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#279548: May 5th 2019 at 11:29:46 AM

Among the many things that keep me up at night, one is the fear that Trump's damage to the economy will only hit us if/when he's out of the White House, and all the blame will fall on the Democrats.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#279549: May 5th 2019 at 11:38:35 AM

Funny enough, I think the candidate who is actually taking the most direct shots at Trump on the campaign trail is Biden.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#279550: May 5th 2019 at 11:39:03 AM

Right,people will expect the Democrats to fix everything overnight,literally hit the undo button

And however much they want quick fixes they must understand that to repair the damage done by Trump will take years,the only I can think of totally undoing the damage is to keep electing Democrats since the moment you get a Republican in charge they'll undo any repairs.It's frustrating but that's life and politics for you,neither is fair

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on May 5th 2019 at 6:39:33 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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