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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279501: May 4th 2019 at 11:13:52 PM

Perhaps if more progressive leftist candidates won elections in 2018, that's the strategy they would have gone with.

But the numbers just didn't favor that.

Leftist politics didn't win the House in 2018. Flipping red districts did. If more candidates like Ocasio-Cortez or Omar ran in Red districts and somehow won, then maybe there'd be more of a push to go Left in the Democratic Party.

This sort of thing is why Pelosi isn't impressed by stuff like Twitter followings. When it comes right down to it, votes are all that matter.

Edited by M84 on May 5th 2019 at 2:16:03 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#279502: May 4th 2019 at 11:19:47 PM

But with house districts and senate seats, you can tailor your strategy to the individual area. The Democratic candidates ranged from Joe Manchin to AOC, and so both types of candidates won in different areas.

But with a Presidential race, you need your voters on board. If you chase the moderate vote, you risk the Left-Wing vote staying home (or worse, a Ralph Nader scenario). If you're accepting that your voters can decide not to vote for you, and thus chasing moderates is necessary, you have to accept that the Left wing can also do that.

If, however, you accept the anti-Trump coalition will compel people to vote Democratic, then there is no reason to hew strictly to the Center Left, and you can propose more ambitious policy.

Either way, Pelosi is still wrong here.

Edited by AzurePaladin on May 4th 2019 at 2:20:27 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279503: May 4th 2019 at 11:24:20 PM

[up]Then it's a good thing Pelosi isn't running for President, isn't it.

Remember that we also have House and Senate elections in 2020.

Edited by M84 on May 5th 2019 at 2:24:56 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#279504: May 4th 2019 at 11:25:12 PM

I would like to believe that voters would learn from 2016 and not stay home just because the more "moderate" candidate won the primary.

But that's asking more from me than I'm able to give.

i'm tired, my friend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279505: May 4th 2019 at 11:26:42 PM

Pelosi may also still be somewhat annoyed with "progressives" considering the kind of person they chose to try to primary her in 2018.

Disgusted, but not surprised
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#279506: May 4th 2019 at 11:41:31 PM

This is only going to make them feel vindicated.

i'm tired, my friend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279507: May 4th 2019 at 11:49:17 PM

It they wanted Pelosi out, maybe they shouldn't have picked a bigoted old man as their candidate.

They could not have picked a more stereotypical "Bernie Bro".

Edited by M84 on May 5th 2019 at 2:51:09 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#279508: May 5th 2019 at 12:02:16 AM

When did center-left become hardcore conservative? It’s not like Pelosi is seeking an NRA endorsement, she’s focusing on a strategy that we know worked in 2018.

Fixing Healthcare, getting fair wages, tackling corruption. When did these stop being Democratic platforms? And it’s not like they’re going to thumb their noses and progressive legislation should we win back Congress. If people skip out out on voting for Democratic senators and representatives because they’re not passing some purity test then they probably weren’t going to vote for us anyway unless Sanders wins the nomination.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279509: May 5th 2019 at 12:04:50 AM

[up]This. So much this.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#279510: May 5th 2019 at 12:10:50 AM

Pelosi came up with her plan to beat Trump - no impeachment, and stick to the center. The latter is because she thinks that hewing close to the center and chasing the moderate voters with deliver an election victory big enough that Trump will not contest the results.

This is essentially the Joe Biden plan and why he's winning (and probably will win) the primary. The Democrats are not interested in their Far Left members (AOC won against their chosen candidate) and frustrated with the angry progressive economics of Bernie as well as Warren to an extent. They will do everything in their power to run the "business as usual" candidate and that's Joe.

He has the DNC machine behind him and they will squeeze the others out.

If people skip out out on voting for Democratic senators and representatives because they’re not passing some purity test then they probably weren’t going to vote for us anyway unless Sanders wins the nomination.

Unless their lives depend on radical economic change. Which a lot of peoples' do.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 5th 2019 at 12:12:04 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279511: May 5th 2019 at 12:12:17 AM

[up]Eh, Biden still only has 3 endorsements from actual DNC members.

Most of his endorsements come from actual elected (current and former) officials.

538 pointed out that Biden's actual party support is rather lukewarm, all things considered.

Edited by M84 on May 6th 2019 at 3:13:55 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#279512: May 5th 2019 at 12:13:50 AM

When did center-left become hardcore conservative? It’s not like Pelosi is seeking an NRA endorsement, she’s focusing on a strategy that we know worked in 2018.

Okay, now you're strawmanning. The only one talking about "hardcore conservatives" is you. Furthermore, there is a middle ground between moderate left and "Bernie Bro". There are people left of moderate that aren't part of the Unicorn Brigade. And if this move demotivates them next year...

Edited by PhysicalStamina on May 5th 2019 at 3:16:35 PM

i'm tired, my friend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279513: May 5th 2019 at 12:15:56 AM

If Biden does win, it may likely be due to his vocal support and courting of unions.

He's really going all in on this: speaking in support of a strike, winning over the fireman's union, etc.

Edited by M84 on May 6th 2019 at 3:16:24 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#279514: May 5th 2019 at 12:20:24 AM

Biden wants to court the Clintonian-Era democratic platforms. He's not going young like Bernie but the "classic" Democrat voters.

Middle-aged and above.

Time will tell if this is a viable strategy.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#279515: May 5th 2019 at 12:20:47 AM

If this move demotivates them this year, then frankly, they're not acting in the best interest of the country, despite how incendiary that sounds. I can understand being upset your primary candidate didn't win, and I would hold my nose to vote for some of the candidates in the field currently, but getting a Democratic President is the most important thing in 2020, full stop.

It's been fun.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#279516: May 5th 2019 at 12:27:30 AM

[up] Thing is, that same logic rarely gets applied to moderate voters. We have to hew to the center to coddle the moderate votes as to not demoralize them, but if the Left gets demoralized only then that group is at fault!?

Either way, to clarify, as of now I'm voting blue regardless of who wins the primary. Voting the white supremacist out of office takes precedence. I'm just annoyed at having my support taken for granted all the time.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#279517: May 5th 2019 at 12:28:47 AM

[up]This as well. It's not like left-of-moderate voters are any smaller a base than said moderates.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on May 5th 2019 at 3:30:44 PM

i'm tired, my friend
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#279518: May 5th 2019 at 12:34:22 AM

I trust Pelosi when it comes to reading the American electorate. If she considers Biden the best way to win back the Rust Belt, either through moderate voters or union support, I believe her. I'll just be disappointed in all the good changes missed out on.

Life is unfair...
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#279519: May 5th 2019 at 12:34:29 AM

^^This is also true, and fair. It's just that currently it's the left-of-center voters are the ones whose support is in question this election, for better or for worse. While I'd love to see the Overton window moved left enough that the overall discussion circles around moderates having to stretch and vote, instead of people further left, that's just not the case right now.

Edited by RedSavant on May 5th 2019 at 3:45:23 PM

It's been fun.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#279520: May 5th 2019 at 12:42:05 AM

Trump is ultimately the DNC's best friend in this as no matter how uninteresting or bland a candidate, it's the choice between Ritz Crackers versus being kicked in the nuts.

Yes, you want steak but you don't want to be kicked in the nuts.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#279521: May 5th 2019 at 12:53:43 AM

[up][up] But if that Overton window is going to get pushed, we're going to need to rock the boat a bit. This is a refrain that could have come after any election, because the easy solution is to just go as cautiously forward as possible and not push things too far. But what is easy is not always what is good. And that Overton window isn't going to shift itself.

Because if not now, when!?

Edited by AzurePaladin on May 5th 2019 at 3:54:06 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#279522: May 5th 2019 at 12:57:25 AM

[up]I don't necessarily agree with the whole center/moderate route, but I can't help but thing there are, bluntly, far more pressing concerns than that right now.

"Because if not now, when!?" isn't at all convincing to me, personally. At least not right now.

Edited by LSBK on May 5th 2019 at 3:16:06 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#279523: May 5th 2019 at 1:13:51 AM

I’m reminded of Obama not being in support gay marriage on the campaign trail in ‘08, the same year California banned gay marriage, and then tacitly, and then openly, helping to normalize LGTB rights throughout his presidency.

To me that says the best answer to “If not now, when?” would be “After we win”.

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#279524: May 5th 2019 at 1:13:52 AM

[up][up] We can work on more than one thing at once. I'm not proposing ignoring other concerns to exclusively focus on this, I'm saying that some of these issues won't get better until we make a concerted effort to deal with them thoroughly. And that is going to involve pushing for more than a few cautious steps.

Edited by AzurePaladin on May 5th 2019 at 4:24:45 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279525: May 5th 2019 at 1:19:13 AM

[up][up]I think part of the issue is that a lot of us thought we had already "won" in 2018.

But taking the House...that wasn't us winning it all. That was just one step. A crucial step, but still not enough.

Edited by M84 on May 5th 2019 at 4:19:42 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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