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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Good people can have stupid views, which is something humanity has not yet come to terms with. A lot of people can theoretically support something awful which they only come to terms with when faced with its consequences. I have no solution for how to solve that.
Mind you, my friends in Britain and I often discuss how Trump and Brexit are two sides of, "I want to ask what the hell were you thinking but I can't figure out how not to look hypocritical."
Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 4th 2019 at 5:33:30 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
x4
From what I know of the USA Green Party they're largely not tankies, just mildly insane anti-vaxxers with some assorted leftist hangers-on. "Tankie" is quite a specific term on the UK left though, might be different across the pond. Anarchists of any stripe are almost certainly not UK-parlance tankies, neither are the Trots or Leftcoms or assorted other Communist/Marxist tendencies. The DSA and such are mostly regarded as left-liberals who are into rhetorical Lenin cosplay.
OK, I'll stop nitpicking now. But yes, certainly there's some subsectors of the far left that are so fixated on dunking on the liberals that they mostly used to be that they buy basically anything. Idiots to a greater or lesser degree across the political spectrum, I suppose, although you can obviously argue over where the line is.
Edited by DeathorCake on May 4th 2019 at 1:02:30 PM
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To state the obvious, "Managed Democracy" Russian Federation now =/= the Soviet Union. Is very definitely capitalist rather than State Capitalist/State Socialist/Command Economy/whatever-you-call-the-SU, not typically fond of any kind of leftist, hammer and sickle not on flag, not generally beloved by ML groups of any kind. "Tankies" are specifically apologists for the Soviet Bloc or sometimes other professed-socialist authoritarians.
Defending a corrupt authoritarian capitalist power meddling in elections therefore doesn't make you a tankie, just an ordinary moonbat (or, with different countries doing the meddling, a neocon).
Edited by DeathorCake on May 4th 2019 at 1:23:30 PM
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I imagine certain kinds of Anti-Imperialist Leftist might be willing to defend Russian action if opposes the US even then though this ideological current has declined significantly since the USSR collapsed and China has gone full Authoritarian Capitalist.
You will still see plenty of people, particularly among Marxist socialists that will defend smaller authoritarian socialist countries like Cuba or North Korea (yes really) for anti-imperialist reasons. And that's even before you get to people who are full Third-Worldist-Maoist who are probably the most obnoxious kinds of Anti-Imperialist.
Either way though none of these are at all mainstream in US politics even in broad leftist organizations like the DSA.
Edited by Mio on May 4th 2019 at 9:33:32 AM
Oh, of course they exist, I've met a good few. The point I was making is that although some tankies may defend the actions of modern Russia to an unreasonable degree, defending Russia's current government doesn't necessarily make you a tankie. Fairly sure that's what you were saying anyway, was just clarifying.
RE: The Biden quote - it was from 2018, in an interview with the LA Times
.
"Because here's the deal guys, we decided we were gonna change the world. And we did. We did. We finished the civil rights movement in the first stage. The women's movement came to be," he continued.
"So my message is, get involved. There's no place to hide. You can go and you can make all the money in the world, but you can't build a wall high enough to keep the pollution out. You can't live where — you can't not be diminished when your sister can't marry the man or woman, or the woman she loves. You can't — when you have a good friend being profiled, you can't escape this stuff."
So it's not as bad as the initial soundbite is, but it's still not a great look. Unfortunately, as someone else pointed out, that soundbite alone would play very well for the "Stupid Special Snowflakes" crowd (my 35-year-old brother is one, for example). It also rather conveniently ignores the attempts made by Millenials that have been completely trampled (e.g. Occupy Wall Street) with a relative shrug from everyone else.
@Oruka - Yes, unfortunately there is such a thing as moral relativism. It's why Canada has no issue with consuming horse meat, while those in the US are horrified, and Foreign Queasine is an active trope. Ditto for the consumption of dogs, cats, rats, insects, etc. And that's just when it comes to dietary morality - that's not even getting into more tangled issues such as polyamory (from a legal perspective as well as moral one), religion in general, state-sponsored religion in particular, and a slew of other topics that could easily start a Flame War for being brought up.
And back to the 2020 primaries - it seems Warren's messaging is paying off
, as one poll actually had her second to Biden, and largely because she's laying out policy proposals with details.
Edited by ironballs16 on May 4th 2019 at 10:39:13 AM
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
It's basically Biden expressing irritation with younger people complaining about how hard they have it instead of actually doing something about it.
And when one considers the still fairly low rate of voting among younger people, I can actually kind of understand that frustration.
Not that this makes me feel any more inclined to be happy about a potential Biden primary win. I've got plenty of reasons not to want Biden as the candidate.
Edited by M84 on May 4th 2019 at 10:25:37 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedOkay, now that I've read the entire quote, I find myself to sort of agree with the decontextualized thrust of his statement. It's still peak boomer talk for a total white bread sort of man to claim credit for civil rights and women's liberation, especially him, an anti-abortion, anti-busing candidate in 1972. Calling the problems of young people inconsequential isn't going to win their votes.
What I'm mourning most about his candidacy is the wholesome Uncle Joe meme going up in flames.
Edited by CrimsonZephyr on May 4th 2019 at 10:43:55 AM
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."It’s the modern evolution of the Tankie, the USSR has become modern Russia and many globally haven’t changed their opinion on it. The Right still used to see it as the same great enemy out to get them and the Idiot Left would still see it as the great enemy of the evil US coming to save them.
The self proclaimed leftists who defend modern Russia would just a happily defend the USSR historically, those alive back then did defend the USSR and those not yet politically aware/born back then will defend the USSR if they can get their heads out their own arses long enough to think of a time before they came to be.
The crossover is near complete, few of the old Tankie guard have stopped defending Russia (often because they don’t realise that it’s not even pretending to be socialist now) and if the new guard can think of before the fall of the USSR they will happily defend the USSR.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Oh, it's absolutely disingenuous, especially when you factor in that one of the primary things this generation is frustrated with is wage inequality - which makes it kind of difficult to get out and protest when you're also trying to make rent for that month, or keep yourself fed. It's a bit of a different ballgame from trying to make inroads on social issues, as we've seen some pretty good successes there.
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
x3
And even the elements that are unusual to this generation aren't really to be blamed on this generation.
Just one example: Millennials are less likely to be able to afford cars so if the local polling stations are all relatively far away for a non-driver and not very accessible via public transport, getting to one after working a full-time minimum wage job is simply not tenable.
Edited by Robrecht on May 4th 2019 at 5:02:32 PM
Angry gets shit done.
And the classic "Well the polls are open all day!" argument that I've seen used in complaint of extended and mail-in voting. That may be so, but some people work jobs that have a 12-hour shift, or might work a double in which they work 16 hours instead of 8. Some of those jobs (nursing staff in particular) don't leave much wiggle room, either.
Edited by ironballs16 on May 4th 2019 at 11:22:59 AM
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"The problem there, and what I don't think Biden (or most people around his age) understand is, even when millennials do do something about it, they get severe pushback from institutions that are concerned about their bottom line being threatened. To say nothing about how the fact that most of us are broke makes "doing something about it" next to if not actually impossible.
And that problem is not something that can be solved by "just getting a job", because jobs are not like copies of the Express; you can't just walk down to a job stand and pick up an HR job at Sears. First, you have to actually find jobs in your area (which, depending on where you live, can fuck you right then and there), and, once you've found something you might be able to do with your very limited skill set, you apply, wait to hear back from them, wait to hear back from them, wait to hear back from them, wait to hear back from them, wait to hear back from them, realize you're being ghosted, and start back at square one. Or if you're lucky, they actually will get back to you, give you a quick phone interview, and then ghost you. If you're even luckier, they'll set up an in-person interview, so you can convince someone who's probably already decided they're not going to hire you to change their mind. If God feels generous that week, you'll get an email telling you they have, and you start Monday. Otherwise...
TL;DR, the situation many of us are in is a little more complex than "lazy millennials herp de derp".
i'm tired, my friend
To be fair, I think Biden was referring specifically to the political sphere, not the socioeconomic one. That said, it's still missing the mark, as we've seen protests in which millenials have been engaged (again: Occupy Wall Street), and were treated as annoyances at best, outright harmed (to the casual indifference of others) at worst. There was no "Kent State shooting
" level of police brutality to galvanize the public - the worst it rose to was pepper-spraying, and that was "basically just a condiment" according to more callous outlets.
Granted, those pepper-sprayings were still enough to get the mainstream media interested in reporting on Occupy in the first place. Prior to that they didn't really pay that much attention to it.
Occupy might have had more of an impact and better PR if it had an actual official spokesperson or leader at the time. If it had its own equivalent of MLK Jr.
Edited by M84 on May 5th 2019 at 12:10:18 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised
MLK at the time was treated as just as much of a dangerous and hated radical as members of the Black Panther Party and the Nation of Islam.
Don’t foul yourself into think that the movement would have been treated with any more respect or taken as seriously if they had a charismatic pacifist leading it. The movement would still have been viewed as a threat, and would have been marginalized and attacked just the same.
Somebody mentioned stagnant wages as an economic issue for Trump, wisewillow I believe, but they actually have finally been growing, for all types of workers.
So that's one less problem the democratic candidate can stake their candidacy on reverting.
The article also says that states and cities that rose their minimum wage are probably the biggest boost to wage increases. And that places hit hardest by the recession, rust belt, mining, etc. are still lagging behind everyone else.
Pointing at a graph and telling people about economic success isn't going to mean much to them if their personal experience says their wages are still low and economic mobility is still a pipe dream.
Man, we had an open state house seat where I live, and for the heck of it I looked up the pay... 30k. Pretty hard to make that look like a good prospect for anyone who doesn’t have an enormous savings account, locking out most younger people who want to make a difference from within the legislature.

I recall a time when Chuck D, of Public Enemy, whose pro-black, anti-racist, and anti-establishment (for whatever worth the term has nowadays) anthems made them legendary figures in hip-hop, suddenly posted a tweet about how the EU was irredeemably awful and Brexit was a good thing (although I'm paraphrasing here).
Edited by PhysicalStamina on May 4th 2019 at 7:31:24 AM
i'm tired, my friend