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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#279376: May 3rd 2019 at 3:08:58 PM

[up]Historically everyone is happy to have stuff and power at the expense of lives outside their border.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279377: May 3rd 2019 at 3:11:39 PM

[up][up][up] The only problem with that is that all competition puts lives at stake. Everything from simple trade all the way up to world war hurts someone somewhere. If that’s what you’re opposed to you may as well be opposed to the basic concept of nations influencing each other, which I consider a fundamentally immoral position to hold.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 3rd 2019 at 3:14:59 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#279378: May 3rd 2019 at 3:15:11 PM

Just gonna copy my edit to a new post, as it got dumped at the bottom of the page and is liable to be missed.

[up]X4 Lives are always at stake, welcome to national and international governance, almost every actions results in people dying in some way.

Europe has been making dramatic strides towards improving financial transparency. Iceland has been extremely successful.

Iceland is one country and Europe is a continent, the EU has made limited moved that have been hampered internally by the likes of Cyprus, Ireland, the Netherlands and everyone's favourite [insert expletives here] Luxenbourg. That's before one gets into the number of wrenches that the UK has thrown into the process.

The same UK that is in the middle of leaving the EU because much of its wealthy elites are vulture capitalists who want to run The City as a mob laundromat, loot the UK public services and hide all their wealth in British Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories.

The UK is one of the biggest providers of tax havens in the world, and we're in the process of becoming more hostile to international financial regulation.

Oh and don't even get me started on the Swiss.

Edited by Silasw on May 3rd 2019 at 10:15:49 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#279379: May 3rd 2019 at 3:18:49 PM

@Charles: At the expense of lives they don't have to hear about. Like factory chickens, these realities are only bearable so long as you aren't made to confront them, which is why people remain wilfully ignorant of violence in their own borders, towns, workplaces, families. Once they know the truth, they cannot hold on to their ill-gotten privilege. "Conscience do cost", so let's stay unconscious.

[up]So they said Brexit was about immigration, but actually it was about financial secrecy?

Edited by Oruka on May 3rd 2019 at 3:21:56 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279380: May 3rd 2019 at 3:21:53 PM

[up] Sadly I’d say most people are perfectly happy to hold onto their ill-gotten gains even when they know where they come from. After all, most people who know where their meat comes from still eat it.

But either way, you’re still not addressing the flaw in your original post which is that no competition can be harmless.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 3rd 2019 at 3:24:31 AM

They should have sent a poet.
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#279381: May 3rd 2019 at 3:22:38 PM

Given how the name Huckleberry has scarred me on a personal level (long story, no relation to the Mark Twain story), I'd say it's an apt name for a lousy press speaker.

ASAB: All Sponsors Are Bad.
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#279382: May 3rd 2019 at 3:23:25 PM

[up][up]I'm sure there must be solid behavioural economics studies on the subject that would settle the question, but I know not how to get them.

Edited by Oruka on May 3rd 2019 at 3:29:19 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#279383: May 3rd 2019 at 3:26:52 PM

Racism (not immigration, high immigration areas (alongside high education areas) generally voted to Remain) was a reason for many Leave voters, especially when combined with high level of ignorance as to what is causing current massive failing in British government services (it's not an increase in use, it's a massive decreases in funding).

But for the people behind the Leave campaign it was a combination of personal wealth making (a number of Tory politicians are connected financially to vulture capitalist groups), personal political influence (both for Tory politicians on both sides and for media owners who felt they lacked influence in Brussels and wanted power back in Parliament where they have control) and an ideological opposition to the direction of EU regulations (on most things, but mainly finance, workers rights and media regulation).

Oh and racism.

Edited by Silasw on May 3rd 2019 at 10:31:17 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279384: May 3rd 2019 at 3:28:19 PM

[up][up] Factory farming is common knowledge in the US, yet only 5% of Americans are vegetarian.

I’ll also point out that the definition of “ill-gotten gains” varies greatly from person to person. What one individual might find totally acceptable another might find repulsive.

Given the totality of human history, though, I’d say the question is pretty much settled here.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 3rd 2019 at 3:30:23 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#279385: May 3rd 2019 at 3:31:28 PM

Archon, the harmfulness of competition can be mitigated with effort, will, and applied intellect and empathy. Competition itself can be mitigated in favour of cooperation, which is usually by far the most profitable approach over time. Although we're getting pretty damned abstract, and we may end up talking past each other, so maybe you could stand to bring up some specific examples.

[up]True, but as awareness grows, and farming gets more "optimized" and inhumane, so does this population, which I understand is growing fast enough to cause a "carnist" backlash.

Again, for most of human history, populations were insulated from each other's suffering by a multitude of barriers. Nowadays an foreign child can beg you to leave his country alone in fluent Lingua Franca in your living room on live streams. Or show up at your doorstep asking for asylum, seeing as her house was leveled by a bomb with your country's name on it.

media owners who felt they lacked influence in Brussels and wanted power back in Parliament where they have control)

You mean a very specific Australian media mogul, don't you?

Edited by Oruka on May 3rd 2019 at 3:40:27 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279386: May 3rd 2019 at 3:41:26 PM

[up] The general competition vs. cooperation point is a little too nebulous to effectively argue, and I’d say it’s also not really relevant here. There will always be a need for competition, and there is no form of competition that is totally harmless. No mitigation could ever bring the harm to zero.

Instead of supposedly “violent” economic sanctions, you originally proposed cutting away the personal fortunes of dictators. Do you really think the inevitable crackdown or conflict as the dictator loses power would be less violent than the effect of sanctions?

The idea that their should be no competition is essentially an admission that things like fascism and discrimination are no different than things like democracy and equality. It’s basically just repackaged cultural relativism, which is an entirely uncompelling philosophy.

“Carnist backlash” got a laugh from me though. You know humans are omnivores, right?

Edited by archonspeaks on May 3rd 2019 at 3:43:20 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#279387: May 3rd 2019 at 3:54:33 PM

[up]Current archeological evidence points towards starchivore-ness. If humans were omnivores in the same way pigs, dogs, and bears are, their teeth would be different, and we would have found a lot of animal bones near ancient human settlements. We didn't. Sources in the doobly-do.

By "carnist" I mean people who go out of their way to increase their proportion of meat intake, culminating in near-exclusively animal ketogenic diets. By "backlash" I mean they often explicitly state a dislike for vegans and veganism as a motivation, as well as a fear of having their bacon and burgers banned.

Edited by Oruka on May 3rd 2019 at 3:58:42 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279388: May 3rd 2019 at 3:58:40 PM

[up] Uhh...it would be great if you could respond to the main point.

Also, let’s keep the psudeoscience off this board please. One look at who’s pushing the “starchivore” theory (that channel is a known pusher of anti-GMO and anti-vax nonsense) tells me everything I need to know about it, and the arguments that our biology is anything but omnivorous are weak in the extreme.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 3rd 2019 at 4:02:57 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#279389: May 3rd 2019 at 3:59:59 PM

You mean a very specific Australian media mogul, don't you?

I wish he was alone, there are five of them, between the five Press Barons they own 80% of U.K. media (I think print media but I could be wrong and it could include TV) and they are their companies are all registered abroad and avoid paying tax.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#279390: May 3rd 2019 at 4:01:29 PM

"The idea that their should be no competition is essentially an admission that things like fascism and discrimination are no different than things like democracy and equality. It’s basically just repackaged cultural relativism, which is an entirely uncompelling philosophy."

I don't follow your logic. I'd like you to explain it to me.

As for the starchivore narrative, I suggest you have a look at said doobly-do and get back to me on that, instead of dismissing it out of hand. It is indeed off topic, but you can't seem to resist an opportunity to ridicule your interlocutor or impeach their morals, and I'm comfortable holding my position until you stop.

Of course, nutrition is an extremely corrupt scientific field, with an institutional, open, official history of industrial capture, so what is or isn't pseudoscience can indeed be hard to tell. You need to look at each study separately, look at the methodology, the funding, and which boards and functions the authors sit at. It's exhausting work, and profoundly frustrating.

[up]How can a democracy function when its main means of informing the public are compromised this way? What is even the will of the people if the people make decisions based on false premises?

Edited by Oruka on May 3rd 2019 at 4:11:14 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#279391: May 3rd 2019 at 4:09:34 PM

Anyway, on the topic of sanctions, is it any less immoral than the actions of the people they are intended to target?

In the case of Russia, Oligarchs are literally stealing thousands from the Russian People, and use the laundered money in all sorts of awful activities around the world.

Edited by megaeliz on May 3rd 2019 at 7:15:15 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#279392: May 3rd 2019 at 4:10:38 PM

Isn’t it fun how Russia oligarchs and we have billionaires? Hmm.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#279393: May 3rd 2019 at 4:14:03 PM

I don’t even think the two countries’ ruling parties can be called Not So Different because that still implies too much difference between them.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on May 3rd 2019 at 7:14:41 AM

My musician page
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#279394: May 3rd 2019 at 4:15:00 PM

The greatest heist of all time appears to be Wal-Mart's wage theft and tax evasion. Do you think the rest of the "good world" imposing sanctions on the USA would get them to stop, or be stopped? Would you believe a foreign country leader telling you they're bringing your economy to its knees for the sake of your freedom and well-being? Would you vote to get them what they want so that the suffering would stop?

Marxists and other leftists would argue that the plus-value that capital owners retain from workers' labour is theft and immoral, but I'm sticking with non-controversial, conventional morality, for the sake of keeping conversation fluid.

Edited by Oruka on May 3rd 2019 at 4:21:19 AM

Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#279395: May 3rd 2019 at 4:17:00 PM

Isn’t it fun how Russia oligarchs and we have billionaires? Hmm.

Well of course... When they do exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason hurting exactly the same people, how else are we going to distinguish between them so we can point at theirs and say 'those people are bad' without also having to point to ours when we do?

Capitalism is a hell of a drug.

Angry gets shit done.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#279396: May 3rd 2019 at 4:17:10 PM

Meet Oleg Deripaska, just one of the Oligarches who had a ton of sanctions slapped on him last year:

Oleg Deripaska is being designated pursuant to E.O. 13661 for having acted or purported to act for or on behalf of, directly or indirectly, a senior official of the Government of the Russian Federation, as well as pursuant to E.O. 13662 for operating in the energy sector of the Russian Federation economy. Deripaska has said that he does not separate himself from the Russian state. He has also acknowledged possessing a Russian diplomatic passport, and claims to have represented the Russian government in other countries. Deripaska has been investigated for money laundering, and has been accused of threatening the lives of business rivals, illegally wiretapping a government official, and taking part in extortion and racketeering. There are also allegations that Deripaska bribed a government official, ordered the murder of a businessman, and had links to a Russian organized crime group.

Edited by megaeliz on May 3rd 2019 at 7:18:38 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#279397: May 3rd 2019 at 4:18:06 PM

That would be a great argument except sanctions can and have caused nations to reform their shitty human rights records throughout history and it's a far less devastating thing than war. Yes, it sometimes fails but sometimes it works.

I also find the idea of letting dictators grow rich and powerful as they murder their own citizens disgusting. When you do business with them (and you're doing business WITH THEM) you're nothing more than a collaborator in atrocity.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#279398: May 3rd 2019 at 4:23:30 PM

Oruka: The logic is right there. Should nations that execute LGBT people be allowed to do as they please? Leaning on them with diplomacy or sanctions would be a form of competition, after all. The underlying premise there is that behavior like that is equal to, you know, not doing that. I brought up cultural relativism, which states that morals should be judged only to the standard of their culture, excusing almost any heinous practice. The same basic tenet of that philosophy, that every nation is a self-contained unit that should be assessed only by its own standard, applies to the idea that nations should not compete.

Of course, there’s always room for improvement, and if you’re not making an effort to make your competition as humane as possible that kind of defeats the whole exercise. A certain degree of harm has to be accepted though.

I watched the video, and found it unconvincing. Again, known anti-GMO and anti-vax pusher, which reasonably casts doubt on the factual content of the channel, but either way unconvincing. His main source is John Mcdougall, who is best known for claiming that meat killed Steve Jobs and has been pretty roundly debunked by the fact-based nutrition community. His starch weight loss diets in particular have been warned to be incredibly unhealthy, which sort of shoots a hole in the whole “starch is great for you” thing. He also neglects to mention the overwhelming biological evidence in favor of omnivorous tendencies, including forward-facing binocular vision, teeth formation, gut bacteria adapted to digesting meat, a trophic level on par with other omnivores, and the omnivorous behavior of our closest biological relatives.

If the best you can do is outright psudeoscience I don’t think that argument holds much weight. The fact that you consider an anti-vaxxer a source that’s in any way valid is a little silly.

Edited by archonspeaks on May 3rd 2019 at 4:26:17 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#279399: May 3rd 2019 at 4:24:52 PM

[up][up]I can respect that standard from you, and acknowledge the dilemma it poses, and that life is messy. I cannot accept it from people who happily do just that with the monsters that are friendly to them.

[up]"Leaning on them with diplomacy or sanctions would be a form of competition, after all."

I fail to understand that as "competition". Maybe my understanding is too narrow.

On the topic of omnivores, I'm not equipped to evaluate the truthfulness of your assertions, to contest or concede in good conscience, so I'll have to leave the issue standing. I hope that we can agree that there is such a thing as ideological carnism, as opposed to spontaneous omnivore-ness, and that some of it is a reaction to the rising visibility of vegetarianism and veganism, especially in their more virulent, moralizing aspects, as opposed to just being business as usual.

Edited by Oruka on May 3rd 2019 at 4:32:25 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279400: May 3rd 2019 at 4:34:31 PM

Could we maybe not push pseudoscience here?

Disgusted, but not surprised

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