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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#279176: Apr 30th 2019 at 10:53:03 AM

The President could also instruct the FBI, DEA, and other alphabet soup agencies not to arrest, the DOJ not to prosecute, and fire anyone who didn't get with the program. He absolutely has that authority. For example, Obama told said agencies that, in states that legalized marijuana, they were to avoid making marijuana arrests.

The problem with doing something like this by Presidential fiat is not that it's outside the President's power, or that it'd set a bad precedent. Quite the opposite: it would set no precedent. The next President would be able to re-enforce the drug laws and reopen the private prisons (assuming they hadn't all gone bust in the meantime).

Also, the other thing is that any such program like this would need to be, to be done right, combined with federal aid to prison communities where the prisons close down, and that requires Congressional support. Yeah, I know a lot of people will be playing the World's Smallest Violin for people whose jobs depend on injustice, but that attitude needs to be squelched double quick. These are voters who we need to court, and they're displaced workers whose needs we need to address.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#279177: Apr 30th 2019 at 10:57:22 AM

Far be it for me to rain on the Pardon solution for the War on Drugs, but I want to note that using Pardons as a fix has its own problem.

Namely, it might get people out of prison (which is a plus) but it doesn't expunge their felony conviction. You get to go home and be with your family, which is good, but you still can't ever get a job again because you're a felony ex-con. A Pardon only absolves you of the sentence, not the conviction.

It's still better than not having it, but it is absolutely a band-aid, not a miracle cure. I don't think it would do much to deter cops, either, because even if they can't put minorities in jail specifically anymore, they still hold the power to ruin those people's lives.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 30th 2019 at 11:58:31 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#279178: Apr 30th 2019 at 11:04:13 AM

IANAL, but I think a pardon prior to conviction is not the same as a post-conviction pardon and doesn't carry a conviction. So future arrests can be automatically shut down.

Not to mention that most arrests for drugs are state-level, which the President can't do anything about. It's not a perfect fix, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#279179: Apr 30th 2019 at 11:11:06 AM

The idea behind the pardon (not spelled out in the Constitution, but taken as precedent) is that it does not absolve a person of a crime; quite the opposite: it carries an implicit confession of guilt and contrition. "You did the thing, but we forgive you (or your conviction was unjust)," is the gist.

This is partly why Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon is seen as so controversial to this day, for two reasons. First, Nixon had not been convicted of any crime at that point; second, he did not admit to any crime as a condition of the pardon.

A person pardoned for a crime is no longer a felon by definition. They are an "ex-felon", an "ex-con", whatever you call it. At that point, you run into laws at the state level governing the rights of released felons, which vary greatly. The President can't do anything about that, at least not directly.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 30th 2019 at 4:00:28 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#279180: Apr 30th 2019 at 11:36:37 AM

Right. That, exactly.

It would still get a lot of people out of prison, which would be a net positive. I'm not against the idea. After all, I'm the one who always likes to pull out that Obama quote, "Better is Good". And this would be Better.

I just want it to be a conversation-starter, not a conversation-ender. If that makes sense.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#279181: Apr 30th 2019 at 12:42:11 PM

Annulling sentences is definitely better but one step at a time.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#279182: Apr 30th 2019 at 1:21:32 PM

[up]

And it's a policy just as easily-reversed by the next president as the DREAMER program was. Well-intentioned, but rather fatally flawed because of the way it was executed.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#279183: Apr 30th 2019 at 1:28:48 PM

And it's a policy just as easily-reversed by the next president as the DREAMER program was. Well-intentioned, but rather fatally flawed because of the way it was executed.

Presidents can't reverse pardons, calling it fatally flawed is quite literally preferring the perfect over the good.

Of course, everyone would prefer legislative means to end the war on drugs. But if we can't then Klobuchar's plan would do very real good.

A bandage might be worse than a cure but when you're bleeding out it's the difference between life and death.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#279184: Apr 30th 2019 at 1:37:32 PM

It comes down to this: do you want people immorally convicted for trivial drug offenses to remain in prison or go free? To say that the latter is worse than doing nothing at all is astonishing. Now, if we could get a legislative solution, that'd be even better, but there's no guarantee that this will happen.

Heck, the political threat of mass pardons might even sway enough members of Congress to get the ball rolling.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 30th 2019 at 4:38:43 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#279185: Apr 30th 2019 at 4:40:37 PM

And isn't it likely that overturning those pardons could create a massive backlash?

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#279186: Apr 30th 2019 at 4:48:56 PM

You can't overturn a pardon. There is no mechanism for that. Even the president can't undo anothe president's pardon.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#279187: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:03:46 PM

>The idea behind the pardon (not spelled out in the Constitution, but taken as precedent) is that it does not absolve a person of a crime; quite the opposite: it carries an implicit confession of guilt and contrition.

This is incorrect.

MYTH NO. 4 Pardons are only for guilty people; accepting one is an admission of guilt.

In 1915, the Supreme Court wrote in Burdick v. United States that a pardon "carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it." Over the years, many have come to see a necessary relationship between a pardon and guilt. Ford carried the Burdick quote in his wallet, defending the Nixon pardon by noting that it established Nixon's guilt. More recently, MSNBC host Ari Melber taunted Arpaio by saying he had admitted he was guilty when he accepted Trump's pardon.

But Burdick was about a different issue: the ability to turn down a pardon. The language about imputing and confessing guilt was just an aside — what lawyers call dicta. The court meant that, as a practical matter, because pardons make people look guilty, a recipient might not want to accept one. But pardons have no formal, legal effect of declaring guilt.

Indeed, in rare cases pardons are used to exonerate people. This was Trump's rationale for posthumously pardoning boxer Jack Johnson, the victim of a racially based railroading in 1913. Ford pardoned Iva Toguri d'Aquino (World War II's "Tokyo Rose") after "60 Minutes" revealed that she was an innocent victim of prosecutors who suborned perjured testimony in her treason case. President George H.W. Bush pardoned Caspar Weinberger because he thought the former defense secretary, indicted in the Iran-contra affair, was a victim of "the criminalization of policy differences." If the president pardons you because he thinks you are innocent, what guilt could accepting that pardon possibly admit?

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#279188: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:33:02 PM

I think the problem is, as far as the court of public opinion is concerned, accepting a pardon means you're guilty, so you still have to carry the stigma even if you're not legally an ex-con.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#279189: Apr 30th 2019 at 5:37:05 PM

There has been a shooting at the University of North Carolina, the lone shooter is believed to be in custody. Two people are dead, four are injured (two with life threatening injuries).

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/30/us/university-of-north-carolina-charlotte-shooting/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#279190: Apr 30th 2019 at 6:01:08 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2019/04/30/day-831/

    Day 831: Meritless 
1/ The Justice Department and the House Judiciary Committee are at an impasse over Attorney General William Barr's scheduled testimony. Barr is set to testify about his handling of the conclusions reached by Robert Mueller on Wednesday before the Senate Judiciary Committee and Thursday before the House Judiciary committee. The House hearing, however, is now in doubt over a dispute about who would question Barr. Democrats want part of the questioning be conducted by the panel's Democratic and Republican staff attorneys. Justice Department officials have threatened to cancel Barr's appearance over the proposed format. House Democratic staffers, meanwhile, have threatened to subpoena the attorney general if he refuses to appear. House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler added that the Justice Department seemed to be "very afraid" to have Barr answer questions from committee staff attorneys. (Washington Post / Politico / CNN / Axios)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/29/politics/william-barr-hearing-jerry-nadler/index.html

Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee members called on the Justice Department's inspector general to investigate Barr's handling of the Mueller report. Democrats accused Barr of misleading the public with his four-page summary of Mueller's report on Russian interference in the 2016 election before releasing the full report. "It is unclear what statute, regulation, or policy led the Attorney General to interject his own conclusion that the President’s conduct did not amount to obstruction of justice," the Democratic senators wrote. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/30/william-barr-investigation-mueller-1293214

🔍 House Committee Investigations into Trump

Justice Department prosecutors are trying to block Roger Stone from reviewing unredacted portions of Mueller's report before his November trial. Stone's lawyers want review pertinent sections of the report about Stone, as well as internal memos from the special counsel's office. Sections in Mueller's report were blacked-out because they could cause "harm to an ongoing matter." (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/30/politics/roger-stone-hearing/index.html

Prosecutors subpoenaed Randy Credico to testify against Stone. Credico is expected to highlight Stone's efforts to connect with Wiki Leaks during the 2016 election about Hillary Clinton's emails, as well as Stone's alleged attempts to intimidate Credico into repeating his version of events. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/30/roger-stone-randy-credico-subpoena-1294231

A federal appeals court rejected a request to reexamine the constitutionality of Mueller's appointment. Andrew Miller's attorneys tried to stop a subpoena compelling Miller to testify before a federal grand jury about Roger Stone by citing alleged flaws in Mueller's appointment. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/29/robert-mueller-roger-stone-associate-court-ruling-1292498

2/ Trump mocked national security officials preparing for Russian interference in the 2020 election. Trump suggested that "China is the only game in town" and predicted that "other countries" would try to emulate Russia's efforts. In several meetings, Trump repeatedly told advisers that Russia didn't change a single vote in 2016 – even though his advisers never suggested that Russia did. He called Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election a "goddamn hoax" and insisted that his campaign was not "hacked." Trump's reported lack of focus on election security has made it difficult for national security officials to implement a comprehensive approach to preserving the integrity of the electoral process. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer blamed the Trump administration for "not forcefully and adequately responding to the attack on our democracy" that Mueller describes in his report on Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. (Washington Post / Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/30/chuck-schumer-election-security-1293068

📌 Day 825: Acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney instructed aides not to mention Russian election interference in the 2020 election in front of Trump, calling it not "a great subject" that should be kept below his level." Mulvaney reportedly "made it clear" to aides that Trump still compares discussions about Russian election meddling with "questions about the legitimacy of his victory." (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/24/us/politics/russia-2020-election-trump.html

📌 Day 827: FBI Director Christopher Wray: Russia "poses a very significant counterintelligence threat." Earlier this week Jared Kushner downplayed Russian interference, suggesting that the Mueller investigation was more harmful to the U.S. It was also reported this week that senior White House staff have felt "it wasn't a good idea to bring up issues related to Russia in front of the President." (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/politics/christopher-wray-russia-intelligence-threat/index.html

3/ The House Intelligence Committee will make a criminal referral to the Justice Department about potential false testimony by Erik Prince. Chairman Adam Schiff said "the evidence strongly suggests that [Prince] misled our committee" about a meeting in the Seychelles islands nine days before Trump took office between Prince and a Russian financier close to Putin. Prince told the committee that it was a chance meeting, but the Mueller report revealed communications showing that it was planned. Prince is the founder of private military contractor Blackwater, the brother of Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, and a Trump ally. (Washington Post / Axios)

https://www.axios.com/erik-prince-schiff-criminal-referral-house-intelligence-committee-ea4141e0-9a8b-4759-9e96-caaaadf414d2.html

📌 Day 442: Robert Mueller has evidence that questions Erik Prince's congressional testimony about a chance meeting last year in the Seychelles with Kirill Dmitriev, the manager of a state-run Russian investment fund close to Putin. George Nader, a cooperating witness with limited immunity, told investigators that he facilitated and personally attended a meeting between Prince and Dmitriev days before Trump was inaugurated. The goal of the meeting was to discuss foreign policy and to establish a line of communication between the Russian government and the incoming Trump administration. Prince told the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence in November that "I didn't fly there to meet any Russian guy," and the meeting with Dmitriev was unexpected. Prince founded the private military contractor Blackwater USA and is the brother of Betsy De Vos, who serves as Trump's secretary of education. As of late March, Mueller's team has not asked Prince to appear before the grand jury. (ABC News)

📌 Day 483: Mueller's team is examining a series of meetings that took place in the Seychelles, which have been characterized as an attempt by the U.S. to set up a backchannel with Russia. A Russian plane, owned by Andrei Skoch, a Russian billionaire and deputy in the Russian State Duma, the country's legislative body, flew into the Seychelles a day prior to the 2017 meeting. (NJ.com)

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2018/05/new_details_emerge_on_russian_aircraft_in_seychell.html

4/ Trump, his family, and the Trump Organization are suing Deutsche Bank and Capital One to block their compliance with subpoenas from House Democrats seeking his financial records. Trump's attorneys argue that the subpoenas serve "no legitimate or lawful purpose" and were issued to harass Trump and "rummage through every aspect of his personal finances, his businesses, and the private information of the President and his family." House Democrats called it a "meritless lawsuit" that was "only designed to put off meaningful accountability as long as possible" in order to "obstruct Congress's constitutional oversight authority." The lawsuit was filed on behalf of Trump, Trump Jr., Eric Trump, Ivanka Trump, and the Trump Organization. Deutsche Bank and Capital One intend to begin providing documents to the House on May 6th, absent court intervention. (New York Times / Politico / Axios / CNBC / CNN)

https://www.axios.com/trump-suing-deutsche-bank-over-congress-subpoena-b43659ce-dead-4a73-9e2f-9e7a7d34eb8a.html

📌 Day 817: House Democrats subpoenaed Deutsche Bank for Trump's personal and financial records. Democrats also subpoenaed JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America, and Citigroup for documents related to possible Russian money laundering. Maxine Waters said Trump's "potential use of the U.S. financial system for illicit purposes is a very serious concern" and that the House Intelligence and Financial Services committees will "follow the facts wherever they may lead us." Deutsche Bank reportedly requested a so-called "friendly subpoena" from the committees before it would comply with their request. The Trump Organization, meanwhile, said it was looking at options to block Deutsche Bank from complying with the subpoena. (New York Times / CNN / Politico / Reuters / Washington Post)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-banks-idUSKCN1RR2FW

📌 Day 825: Deutsche Bank is providing financial records to New York state's attorney general following a subpoena for documents related to loans made to Trump and the Trump Organization. The bank is turning over emails and loan documents related to the Trump International Hotel in Washington, DC, the Trump National Doral Miami, the Trump International Hotel and Tower in Chicago, and the unsuccessful effort to buy the Buffalo Bills. The New York attorney general's office opened the investigation following Michael Cohen's testimony to Congress that Trump had inflated his assets. (CNN)

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/04/24/politics/deutsche-bank-trump-records/index.html

5/ Trump ordered new restrictions on asylum seekers at the U.S.-Mexico border. In a memo sent to Kevin Mc Aleenan, the acting secretary of homeland security, and Barr, Trump ordered the development of new regulations to ban asylum seekers from obtaining work permits who crossed the border illegally, impose application fees for asylum seekers, limit access to additional relief, and more. There are more than 800,000 asylum cases pending, with an average wait time of almost two years. Trump ordered that the courts to settle all current asylum claims within 180 days. (Washington Post / CNN / NBC News / New York Times / Politico)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/29/politics/trump-asylum-changes/index.html

    Notables 
The Trump administration wants to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a foreign terrorist organization. The White House directed national security and diplomatic officials to find ways to sanction the group after Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi urged Trump in a private meeting to brand the movement a terrorist organization. The designation would result in wide-ranging political and economic sanctions against the group, as well as travel restrictions on companies and individuals who interact with them. Sarah Huckabee Sanders said Trump is consulting with his national security team and that the designation is "working its way through the internal process." (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/us/politics/trump-muslim-brotherhood.html

Trump's 2020 campaign manager gave a paid speech to a room full of Romanian politicians last month. Brad Parscale's appearance doesn't break any laws as long as he doesn't do any lobbying in the U.S. on behalf of foreign clients without registering. Parscale charges $15,000 to $25,000 in speaker fees and promotes his insider's knowledge as Trump's 2016 digital media director. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/what-was-trump-campaign-manager-brad-parscale-doing-in-romania/2019/04/29/33072280-5628-11e9-aa83-504f086bf5d6_story.html

🎉 Good News from the Resistance: The importance of following Obama on Twitter. [Editor's note: Super excited to announce that I’ve teamed up with Marla Felcher to share her Good News from the Resistance blog with the WTF community… because we could all use some good news right now.]

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#279191: Apr 30th 2019 at 7:26:46 PM

Amy Klobuchar has a plan to reverse the war on drugs — and doesn’t need Congress to do it

Hm. This is something that should be done, but I'm afraid it'd happen in lieu of the massive structural change that needs to occur. The part about it being intended as bipartisan makes me think it's not intended to accomplish as much as I'd like, too. Would also make for a good talking point for Fox News

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#279192: Apr 30th 2019 at 7:29:47 PM

Mm, I kind of see it of her proposing what she can do rather than what she or others might prefer. *shrug*

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#279193: May 1st 2019 at 12:24:53 AM

Amy Klobuchar is a moderate and has turned this aspect of hers into her sales pitch during the primary.

In addition, her proposal reflects realism when it relies on presidential powers only; it's far from clear that Democrats will receive a trifecta in 2020 since a) all signs point to Democrats still not taking Senate elections seriously enough and b) there is no reason to believe that Evil Turtle and his pack will suddenly develop that skill called "cooperation".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#279194: May 1st 2019 at 12:27:47 AM

Is she the one who was said to be really abusive to her staff?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#279195: May 1st 2019 at 12:30:31 AM

Yes, she was the one. I am not sure what came of it, though. Seems like it might have petered out.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279196: May 1st 2019 at 12:59:54 AM

If she becomes POTUS, the WH staff better hope there aren't any staplers nearby.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#279197: May 1st 2019 at 1:00:12 AM

It petered out because while she's verbally abusive to her staff, that is literally something almost every Congressman and Senator and other career politician in Washington D.C. is. It's just not talked about. As someone commented about Veep, Selena Meyer's constant stream of insults and swearing was the most accurate depiction of Washington you'll find.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on May 1st 2019 at 1:01:19 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#279198: May 1st 2019 at 5:14:32 AM

I don't think this is the kind of work environment that should be treated as normal like that.

News about staff abuse should be a black mark against any congressman, not "oh, that's just how it is" and then ignored.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#279199: May 1st 2019 at 5:15:19 AM

Didn't Klobuchar stand out even then, though? To the point that staffers actively tried to avoid working for her?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#279200: May 1st 2019 at 5:22:56 AM

Yeah, there were rumors that it wasn't "just" verbal abuse. I mentioned the staplers for a reason.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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