Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Probably, but would the state want a large influx of Democrat-aligned voters into their electorate?
Something tells me they wouldn't.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 26th 2019 at 4:23:47 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangNow that I think about it, didn’t one of the founders say something along the lines of (paraphrasing here)
“If men were Angels, then men would need no government. If men were governed by angels, man would need no holds on government. But since men are governed by men, the problem is to make government govern itself.”
Edit: it was from the Federalist Papers #51 and the quote was:
Edited by megaeliz on Apr 26th 2019 at 8:44:24 AM
Yes, they were classical liberals who believed that efficient government is bad and that people owning other people was good.
Let's not uncritically accept their philosophy, most of our problems lie at their feet.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangI interpreted that quote to be in reference to our discussion about the Supreme Court and whether or not legislative supremacy would be a good thing.
I, of course, could've been mistaken.
I don't know if I'd call it bad but it rather perfectly encapsulates my problems with the (common) Founders view of government, as something to be distrusted rather then a wonderful tool that exists to enforce the advancement of the common good.
The founding fathers have been dead for 200 years. The problems we're having now are because of shitty people being shitty now, not because the founding fathers were jerks.
This is completely wrong, our system has deep and enduring problems that (among other things) make shitty people more powerful and can be fairly laid at the feet of the Founders.
Does it mean they're Jerks? Not entirely, but it is the result of the US running a shitty Alpha-version of democracy.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 26th 2019 at 5:59:13 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangAnd yet the United Kingdom, Finland, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Barbados, Jamaica, Papua New Guinea, Israel, and the Solomon Islands are doing fine without it.
I can agree with this much at-least
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 26th 2019 at 6:04:47 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang![]()
![]()
I'm certain Ancient Greece had a better claim to the title of "shitty Alpha-version of democracy". What the Founding Fathers wrought is more Obvious Beta.
Thankfully they also created the tools to patch it. But they botched it and made those tools hard to use without a Godzilla Threshold (and I sometimes doubt if even that would cause these tools to be used).
I do agree that the Founders are to blame for most of the systemic issues of the US Government. And that their opinions on slavery in particular still has aftereffects to this day.
Edited by MorningStar1337 on Apr 26th 2019 at 6:08:33 AM
For the record, the quote is part of Federalist #51, which is championing the Checks and Balances System of the Constitution. The whole thing was to reassure people still concerned over ratifying the Constitution that if someone in government or a whole branch started acting against the public interest, another branch could step to reign them in.
To be fair, the Founders of the US weren't necessarily as anti-government as most suspect. A good example would be the quote "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" actually means nearly the exact opposite of what most people quoting it think it means.
Also there's quote cherry picking. If a Founder said something anti-government, it's gonna be quoted more often than anything for it.
Of course, the thing to keep in mind is that the Founders had diverse politics and didn't really agree with each other on a lot of issues. Slavery being one, for example.
Leviticus 19:34I would go as far as to argue that it should be.
Yeah, I view the Founding Fathers as responsible for our current problems but I don't think it was purely or even mostly a question of malevolence. Just that the system was flawed from the getgo and it was inordinately difficult to address those flaws.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 26th 2019 at 6:32:17 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangI don't believe there's a perfect solution for government because the problem is the people not the system.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 26th 2019 at 6:52:49 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.That is basically history in a nutshell.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

Either option corrects the problem.
I don't think either Maryland or Virginia would want that, DC is populace enough that its entrance would utterly skew their politics.
Making DC its own state is most likely the best method to give them representation, and it offers the benefits of adding two new (Democratic) Senators.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang