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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278926: Apr 26th 2019 at 4:12:23 PM

If not making D.C. a state, you could make it a part of Maryland again (D.C. is made from land ceded from Maryland). Or, I guess, maybe Virginia.

Either option corrects the problem.

I don't think either Maryland or Virginia would want that, DC is populace enough that its entrance would utterly skew their politics.

Making DC its own state is most likely the best method to give them representation, and it offers the benefits of adding two new (Democratic) Senators.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#278927: Apr 26th 2019 at 4:16:01 PM

Adding it to West Virginia would be a boon to the state.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278928: Apr 26th 2019 at 4:21:33 PM

Probably, but would the state want a large influx of Democrat-aligned voters into their electorate?

Something tells me they wouldn't.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 26th 2019 at 4:23:47 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#278929: Apr 26th 2019 at 4:25:59 PM

West Virginia is the least reactionary GOP state and regularly elects Democrats and non-insane Republicans.

But it's centrism isn't a selling point either.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#278930: Apr 26th 2019 at 5:28:52 PM

Washington DC was originally made from bits of of both Maryland and Virginia, but the Virgina bits were returned to Virginia in the 1840s.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#278931: Apr 26th 2019 at 5:36:20 PM

John Oliver did a good rundown.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#278932: Apr 26th 2019 at 5:37:01 PM

Now that I think about it, didn’t one of the founders say something along the lines of (paraphrasing here)

“If men were Angels, then men would need no government. If men were governed by angels, man would need no holds on government. But since men are governed by men, the problem is to make government govern itself.”

Edit: it was from the Federalist Papers #51 and the quote was:

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."—

Edited by megaeliz on Apr 26th 2019 at 8:44:24 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278933: Apr 26th 2019 at 5:51:18 PM

Yes, they were classical liberals who believed that efficient government is bad and that people owning other people was good.

Let's not uncritically accept their philosophy, most of our problems lie at their feet.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#278934: Apr 26th 2019 at 5:52:53 PM

I'm not really getting that from that quote. I'd agree with the general point about not heroworshipping the Founder Fathers, though.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#278935: Apr 26th 2019 at 5:53:18 PM

[up][up] still, it’s not a bad sentiment, and gets at the heart of the question of how to keep government accountable when people are governed by people and human nature.

Edited by megaeliz on Apr 26th 2019 at 8:57:18 AM

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#278936: Apr 26th 2019 at 5:55:40 PM

[up][up][up]That's just the same problem as hero-worship but in the other direction.

The founding fathers have been dead for 200 years. The problems we're having now are because of shitty people being shitty now, not because the founding fathers were jerks.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278937: Apr 26th 2019 at 5:56:57 PM

I'm not really getting that from that quote. I'd agree with the general point about not heroworshipping the Founder Fathers, though.

I interpreted that quote to be in reference to our discussion about the Supreme Court and whether or not legislative supremacy would be a good thing.

I, of course, could've been mistaken.

still, it’s not a bad sentiment, and gets at the heart of the question of how to keep government accountable when people are governed by people.

I don't know if I'd call it bad but it rather perfectly encapsulates my problems with the (common) Founders view of government, as something to be distrusted rather then a wonderful tool that exists to enforce the advancement of the common good.

That's just the same problem as hero-worship but in the other direction.

The founding fathers have been dead for 200 years. The problems we're having now are because of shitty people being shitty now, not because the founding fathers were jerks.

This is completely wrong, our system has deep and enduring problems that (among other things) make shitty people more powerful and can be fairly laid at the feet of the Founders.

Does it mean they're Jerks? Not entirely, but it is the result of the US running a shitty Alpha-version of democracy.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 26th 2019 at 5:59:13 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#278938: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:00:26 PM

[up] but it does give us a framework for dealing with when it doesn’t.

I don’t disagree that government should be a tool to advance the public good. That’s a hallmark of progressivism. But People are going to People. tongue

Edited by megaeliz on Apr 26th 2019 at 9:03:18 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278939: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:04:05 PM

but it does give us a framework for dealing with when it doesn’t.

And yet the United Kingdom, Finland, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Barbados, Jamaica, Papua New Guinea, Israel, and the Solomon Islands are doing fine without it.

I don’t disagree that government should be a tool to advance the public good. That’s a hallmark of progressivism. But People are going to People. tongue

I can agree with this much at-least tongue

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 26th 2019 at 6:04:47 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#278940: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:06:46 PM

[up][up][up] I'm certain Ancient Greece had a better claim to the title of "shitty Alpha-version of democracy". What the Founding Fathers wrought is more Obvious Beta.

Thankfully they also created the tools to patch it. But they botched it and made those tools hard to use without a Godzilla Threshold (and I sometimes doubt if even that would cause these tools to be used).

I do agree that the Founders are to blame for most of the systemic issues of the US Government. And that their opinions on slavery in particular still has aftereffects to this day.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Apr 26th 2019 at 6:08:33 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278941: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:08:39 PM

I'm certain Ancient Greece had a better claim to the title of "shitty Alpha-version of democracy". What the Founding Father wroth is more Obvious Beta.

Touche.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#278942: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:08:41 PM

For the record, the quote is part of Federalist #51, which is championing the Checks and Balances System of the Constitution. The whole thing was to reassure people still concerned over ratifying the Constitution that if someone in government or a whole branch started acting against the public interest, another branch could step to reign them in.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#278943: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:09:41 PM

To be fair, the Founders of the US weren't necessarily as anti-government as most suspect. A good example would be the quote "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" actually means nearly the exact opposite of what most people quoting it think it means.

Also there's quote cherry picking. If a Founder said something anti-government, it's gonna be quoted more often than anything for it.

Of course, the thing to keep in mind is that the Founders had diverse politics and didn't really agree with each other on a lot of issues. Slavery being one, for example.

Leviticus 19:34
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#278944: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:09:55 PM

[up][up] That sounds great. Now if congress would only do their job, and reign a certain orange toddler in...

To be more serious, that is the reason it was so important that the Democrats took the House in the midterms.

Edited by megaeliz on Apr 26th 2019 at 9:13:02 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#278945: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:25:37 PM

Mind you, both the FF and the British government before them had the view that government would be able to expand and grow as necessary to benefit the citizenry.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#278946: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:25:44 PM

Yeah, Federalist #51 could be subtitled, "Why Pelosi Matters".

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278947: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:30:15 PM

Yeah, Federalist #51 could be subtitled, "Why Pelosi Matters".

I would go as far as to argue that it should be. wink

Mind you, both the FF and the British government before them had the view that government would be able to expand and grow as necessary to benefit the citizenry.

Yeah, I view the Founding Fathers as responsible for our current problems but I don't think it was purely or even mostly a question of malevolence. Just that the system was flawed from the getgo and it was inordinately difficult to address those flaws.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 26th 2019 at 6:32:17 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#278948: Apr 26th 2019 at 6:52:33 PM

I don't believe there's a perfect solution for government because the problem is the people not the system.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 26th 2019 at 6:52:49 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#278949: Apr 27th 2019 at 12:29:52 AM

Focusing on his sexuality doesn't mean that he can't have a sizable boost because he's a white guy.
Ok? I don't know how you got that from what I wrote. I just note that his coverage has virtually all included his sexuality, and he's still polling well, so having a gay candidate does not, so far, appear to be a hindrance.
The founding fathers have been dead for 200 years. The problems we're having now are because of shitty people being shitty now, not because the founding fathers were jerks.
The problems of the shitty people now have been rather enabled by some of the shitty decisions made 200 years ago, and not corrected by shitty people between now and then.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#278950: Apr 27th 2019 at 12:44:50 AM

The problems of the shitty people now have been rather enabled by some of the shitty decisions made 200 years ago, and not corrected by shitty people between now and then.

That is basically history in a nutshell.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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