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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#278776: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:09:21 PM

“If you pay $1 million of your $50 million in taxes, which is wealth you were able to build due to being a part of our society, we can help families afford good childcare, relieve people from crushing student loans, and build a better future.”

Wow, what a mean lady with her vicious club.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 25th 2019 at 7:10:09 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278777: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:10:36 PM

[up]Yeah, forcing them to essentially file and deal with estate tax returns every year is actually a pretty serious hassle.

Especially if they don't actually have enough actual liquid assets to pay that 2% every year. Because that is how net worth works.

It's a wildly impractical tax plan for a number of reasons, which is probably why a bunch of the countries that have implemented it eventually discontinued it and just stuck with income taxes.

And again, there's the issue of it potentially facing a Supreme Court challenge. Look at the current lineup of the Supreme Court and ask yourself how likely it will be to pass.

I'm not really surprised this wealth plan is still polling so well though. It's the easiest thing in the world to get people onboard with higher taxes if they aren't the ones who will have to actually pay them. It's only 7500 households who will be affected, after all.

Edited by M84 on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:14:14 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#278778: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:12:38 PM

Okay, coming in before this becomes an argument.

What Warren needs right now is some good press. Currently, and this is anecdotal, a lot of coverage seems to be focused on people like Buttgieg or Biden. If she's got any hope of pulling through, she's going to need to be seen as a major contender by the eyes of the public, and to do that she'll likely need a bit more in press coverage.

[up] Wasn't there some support for stacking the court or impeaching judges or some such? I doubt the court will stay static that long.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:13:38 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#278779: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:13:12 PM

I weep for those sitting on $50 million in wealth, having to liquidate enough by selling stock or whatever to pay taxes is such a jerk move.

Meanwhile, I made $20k last year and owed $70 in taxes, which hurt, and I had to pay Turbo Tax another $70 to file because they tricked me out of using the free program they’re supposed to let me use.

[up] She’s gotten some more coverage this week; saw a lot of buzz about her student debt plan and coverage of her CNN town hall and She The People appearance was very positive.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 25th 2019 at 7:14:25 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#278780: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:13:56 PM

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-kamala-and-beto-have-more-upside-than-joe-and-bernie/

538 also mentioned that Biden is likely to have trouble building a coalition beyond the 25% he's getting in the polls now. He's mostly strong with party loyalists and he actually does pretty well with african-americans, but it's possible that his previous record with Anita Hill and his hawkish views on criminal justice could erode that somewhat if he receives more scrutiny.

Funnily enough they claim that the candidate with the clearest path towards building a coalition is Harris. Among democratic women of color she polls very well apparently, and she has a high approval rating with hispanic voters, and there are signs that she would do well with party loyalists and millenials also.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278781: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:15:46 PM

[up][up][up]So you're suggesting that Warren will try to stack the Supreme Court with sympathetic judges to pass her tax plan despite its potential unconstitutionality?

Um...

[up][up]If everyone who is affected by that tax had most of their net worth in easily liquidated assets like a public stock portfolio, it'd be one thing.

If their net worth is based on the valuation of private businesses otoh, they'd have to somehow sell off parts of their own businesses. They'd be fucked.

Edited by M84 on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:17:45 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#278782: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:17:50 PM

[up][up][up] Doesn't help that intuit (the company behind Turbotax) is in bed with those that aim to keep taxes a hassle.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Apr 25th 2019 at 7:18:17 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#278783: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:18:09 PM

[up][up] Hey, I'm not the one that was arguing in favor of stacking the SC (I've grown more accepting of the idea over time though...), I distinctly remember some of the first discussions I participated in on these forums being a three day long discussion on just that though.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:20:00 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#278784: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:20:46 PM

The original train of thought up there did say it was the Republican justices that were the issue, not any inherent unconstitutionality in Warren's plan.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278785: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:20:55 PM

As someone who has looked at what goes into filing estate tax returns out of curiosity, the idea of having to basically go through that every year is pretty unnerving. To say nothing of just how much the IRS would need to be improved and funded to keep up with this.

Warren's plan will at least give accountants more business.

[up]The point is whether or not this wealth tax counts as a "direct tax". Sympathetic judges might argue that it's not. Unsympathetic judges or originalists might argue that it is. Look up Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 of the Constitution:

"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken."

Edited by M84 on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:22:59 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#278786: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:22:39 PM

It doesn't really matter if Warren's tax on the rich is good, bad, or anything else: the rich don't want to pay their fair share to society, they want all of the money, they don't want to lose a single cent.

They're a lost cause because they will see Warren as an enemy no matter what argument you throw at them, there is nothing privileged people hate more than losing their privilege, regardless of how little that might actually change their lives.

If I were an US citizen, she'd have my vote for that alone.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#278787: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:23:45 PM

@Drag: I'm not really surprised she does well with Latinos TBH.

Watch me destroying my country
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278788: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:24:13 PM

And if you're thinking that Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 was included specifically to make direct taxes nearly impossible to implement effectively...you'd be right.

And no, the Estate Tax is not a direct tax. It technically qualifies as indirect since it's only taxing a transfer of assets from the holder to the inheritor. Yay for semantics!

Edited by M84 on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:27:31 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#278789: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:27:54 PM

Probably worth noting right now that a lot of the rich, plantation owning Founders from the southern states were perpetually in debt and rarely were able to produce a lot of cash at any moment.

Washington had to borrow money to get to his own inauguration.

Edited by Parable on Apr 25th 2019 at 7:28:41 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278790: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:29:51 PM

The point is that this wealth tax plan is probably dead in the water.

Maybe Warren ought to just adopt Ocasio-Cortez's 70% income tax thing or something. That at least wouldn't require facing a potential Supreme Court challenge or a massive IRS overhaul.

Edited by M84 on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:30:34 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#278791: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:33:02 PM

Ultimately, this entire thing will be less what Warren wants, but what the Senate is willing to go along with. At the very least, Warren talking about this plan or AOC's plan keeps the idea of raising taxes on the super rich in the light and with positive coverage.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278792: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:34:06 PM

It's just kind of funny that the candidate whose supposed advantage is that she's a policy wonk with clear and detailed plans would propose such an impractical and possibly even illegal plan.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#278793: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:34:56 PM

How much is the tax expected to raise?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278794: Apr 25th 2019 at 7:39:46 PM

According to her campaign it's expected to raise $2.75 trillion over 10 years.

And yes, this wealth tax is in part intended to cover the costs of Warren's other proposals. The childcare proposal for one thing will apparently cost about $1.7 billion over the course of a decade.

Edited by M84 on Apr 25th 2019 at 10:43:13 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#278795: Apr 25th 2019 at 8:18:39 PM

If their net worth is based on the valuation of private businesses otoh, they'd have to somehow sell off parts of their own businesses. They'd be fucked.

Outside of hypothetical dream land nobody who has a net worth over 50 million dollars has all of that stuck in a single private business and anyone who owns multiple private businesses with a combined value of 50 million dollars can flipping well afford to sell (parts of) one or two of them off.

Edited by Robrecht on Apr 25th 2019 at 5:21:51 PM

Angry gets shit done.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278797: Apr 25th 2019 at 8:22:44 PM

It'd still be a nightmare to value all of those assets. And selling off parts of one's businesses to pay taxes like that every year isn't just going to affect the people paying the taxes.

I get that nobody here is inclined to feel sorry for rich people. I get it.

My point is that this plan is impractical, possibly illegal, and is just going to be a headache all around.

If I had to pick between this or the 70% tax thing, I'd gladly go with Ocasio-Cortez's plan. It's at least something that has precedence in the USA. And y'know, wouldn't have to face the fucking Supreme Court.

Edited by M84 on Apr 25th 2019 at 11:24:11 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#278798: Apr 25th 2019 at 8:26:17 PM

If you have over $10 million, I suspect you keep track of what your approximate wealth is for various practical reasons. I’m skeptical that they have no idea what their wealth is and determining it would be some huge burden.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278799: Apr 25th 2019 at 8:28:39 PM

[up]There's that and there's doing a serious valuation of all of your assets for the purposes of filing an estate tax return. The latter is a far more complex and time-consuming affair. Especially since those who have $50 million plus net worth have a lot of hard to value assets. And the estate tax return at least only has to be done once in one's lifetime.

Honestly, there's just too many complications and obstacles with this wealth tax thing. Especially the potential Supreme Court challenge. That there are arguments in favor of it being legal ("direct tax" being somewhat vague) doesn't change the fact that one would still need to make that argument in the first place in front of the Supreme Court. And frankly, trusting this lineup to rule in favor of this wealth tax seems like a really bad idea.

It's not like this is something that came out of the blue. The potential unconstitutionality has been known for months.

Edited by M84 on Apr 25th 2019 at 11:34:49 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
akanesarumara Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#278800: Apr 25th 2019 at 8:35:26 PM

Ok I can see how it might be a hassle to get the money year by year, but I'm not sure on the having the estates judged for value bit. Just how fluctuating is the real estate market?


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