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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

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In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278001: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:56:42 PM

[up]Except that implies what we want to happen is evil. Maybe a different trope would be more appropriate?

Edited by M84 on Apr 19th 2019 at 9:57:14 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#278002: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:58:53 PM

And it's also wrong; evil has to keep winning, because nothing lasts forever. So I'm not even sure what the point being made was.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278003: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:01:03 PM

Yeah, it's one of those tropes that doesn't really apply much to real life.

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#278004: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:01:49 PM

It’s easier to destroy than to build.

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#278005: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:06:52 PM

...I feel like it was obvious I was using it as more of an example than a direct 1:1. Succeeding once is more important than never trying, even if it means a lot of failures. And that is a philosophy that people use, and is a way to play the long game.

Edited by MrAHR on Apr 19th 2019 at 10:08:04 AM

Read my stories!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278006: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:11:04 PM

[up]It's still wrong since "Good only has to win once" is erroneous too. Getting Trump out of office won't immediately solve all of the USA's problems (though it will stop the bleeding at least). We'd have to keep winning.

Perhaps it'd be better to say that we need to be the Determinator to get shit done.

Edited by M84 on Apr 19th 2019 at 10:11:58 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#278007: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:12:40 PM

...I never said any of that. I was trying to explain a philosophy/angle one could use to analyze what the dems were doing and why.

Edited by MrAHR on Apr 19th 2019 at 10:13:00 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#278008: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:22:27 PM

I've weighed the calculus myself a few times, and I've come down against impeachment. I worry that if we impeach Trump and Senate Republicans refuse to convict, then Trump's exoneration will become the official final word. That history will record his exoneration as the endpoint of the "conspiracy theory" scandal. "Like birtherism or 9/11 truthers".

That's my fear. I don't want to hand Mitch McConnell a mic and let him record the last word on the subject.

But

I have a lot of respect for Elizabeth Warren. If she thinks that we can actually win an impeachment proceeding - whether in the Senate or in the Court of Public Opinion - then I'm willing to accept that she knows how to politic better than I do.

If she says this is a good idea, then I'm willing to take it on faith.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:23:37 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278009: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:27:08 PM

[up][up]TBF, you were the one who brought up "Evil only has to win once" and then compared it to the process of legislation.

Not the best comparison for a number of reasons, all things considered.

Edited by M84 on Apr 19th 2019 at 10:27:37 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#278010: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:29:56 PM

I'm used to arguing in places where most people understand that tropes are elastic and not rigid concepts to be applied 1:1. I'll keep in mind going forward I can't be loose with comparisons.

Read my stories!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278011: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:30:47 PM

[up]Keep in mind that not everyone who reads this thread is a regular troper or visits the trope pages often or even posts in the thread.

Edited by M84 on Apr 19th 2019 at 10:31:38 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#278012: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:31:18 PM

oh no I don't argue on tv tropes much at all. It wasn't " knowledge of tv trope tropes" that I was assuming people had.

Edited by MrAHR on Apr 19th 2019 at 10:31:48 AM

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278013: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:31:48 PM

Anyway, I generally refrain from trying to apply tropes to real life or real people.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#278014: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:32:55 PM

ok. I'll keep that in mind when I'm in arguments with you specifically (although I was more applying it to a lens of thought and not a person but I guess that still applies)

Edited by MrAHR on Apr 19th 2019 at 10:35:23 AM

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#278015: Apr 19th 2019 at 7:54:50 PM

Part of the issue is that as we're seeing here, the "Pragmatic Practical Politics" way is not something that is actually working very well with the Democratic base. One of the things that Hillary's campaign ran into with the "Bernie Bros" (or Bernie supporters in general) was that they were deeply energized by him and that didn't necessarily translate to energizing for support for her.

The argument against impeachment is that it will energize Trump supporters and demoralize Democrats. What is happening even right now on many boards (not this one) is the statement, "Well it's not worth it because it won't happen so let's focus on getting him out via votes versus impeachment" is being met with disgust and loathing by the Democratic base as often as nods of agreement. Many people outright state that refusing to impeach is a tacit endorsement of Trump.

That's wrong but I completely agree that refusal to impeach is helping Trump and a betrayal of their office. It's a crime to ignore Trump's crimes.

@Wisewillow: Going by what Charles has said of his state, that's easier said than done. Like, by an entire planet's worth of miles. A better solution is basically get out the vote in 2020 to vote more Democrats into office in general so that a Democrat is the Senate Majority Leader and forcing Mc Connell into a less influential role.

It's not quite that hopeless because Mitch has burned through more good will than you'd ever realize that the last election was close despite blatant unimaginable cheating, gerrymandering, and the lowest approval rating any Kentucky Senator has. People hate Mitch but it's one of the Reddest states in the country.

Kind of a Morton's Fork situation for a lot of voters that are like 90% Republicans.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 19th 2019 at 7:59:19 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278016: Apr 19th 2019 at 8:00:33 PM

I think pissing off the base is most likely better than risking blowback from an impeachment at this juncture. The base is likely to get back in line once the primary begins properly and they see the importance of fighting Trump. Blowback from a failed impeachment OTOH could directly impact the 2020 election.

If the only cost from deciding against launching impeachment proceedings is some of the base getting pissed then I think that's most likely a bearable price.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:01:13 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#278017: Apr 19th 2019 at 8:02:01 PM

Then the problem rests on trying to get those people to understand how politics work.

Not destroying all our political capital for years and years on something guaranteed to fail.

Everyone is way too eager to fall on their sword and has no desire to actually sit down and help people and get substantive work done.

Oh really when?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#278018: Apr 19th 2019 at 8:16:43 PM

Basically, it's destroying political capital now and very likely will energize Trump's base by effectively saying, "No collusion." So yes, I disagree with the fact it will hurt the election's chances for Democrats and will absolutely hurt it if they don't do it.

But yes, none of this will be decided by us and I'm absolutely supporting Warren in doing it.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:17:10 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#278019: Apr 19th 2019 at 8:18:33 PM

[up] Exactly. Joe Donnelly lost partially because a lot of Dem volunteers were too demoralized to campaign for him after his constant spinelessness.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278020: Apr 19th 2019 at 8:22:22 PM

Frankly, at this juncture, I don't think there's much point continuing this discussion. We've probably all said our pieces and there isn't really anything we can do beyond stating those same fundamental positions in increasingly forceful ways.

We might as well just shelve the discussion before it inevitably reaches the point that the mods shelve it for us.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:22:56 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#278021: Apr 19th 2019 at 8:23:29 PM

Have I talked about how much I love Warren’s childcare policy? I love it so, so much.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:24:43 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#278022: Apr 19th 2019 at 8:26:13 PM

Oooh, I do too, it could have such an amazing benefit to America's families and that's something that's deeply needed. The family is the basis of our society and if we don't make it easy for people to have them then people simply won't, and that's bad for all of us.

For those who haven't heard of it Vox (unsurprisingly) has a great article about it.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#278023: Apr 19th 2019 at 8:45:00 PM

I am leaning towards warren, despite my " no opinions until the debates start" stance. She seems to have the least amount of controversies and the most amount of positive overall.

Read my stories!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#278024: Apr 19th 2019 at 8:50:19 PM

I will wait until the primaries begin in earnest. Wait till all the debates are done, all the dirty laundry aired, etc.

We should not let ourselves get too emotionally invested in anyone at this early stage.

Edited by M84 on Apr 19th 2019 at 11:55:15 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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