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BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#277951: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:47:36 PM

Part of me thinks that, if obstruction of justice isn't good enough for impeachment, then what's the point of even having supposed limits on presidential power of they're only going to be symbolic? OTOH, I fear how a failed attempt at impeachment would backfire

Do not obey in advance.
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#277952: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:48:58 PM

Even if Trump is impeached, wouldn't Pence be next in line anyway?

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#277953: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:52:00 PM

Sure, but then you’ve saddled Pence with an impossible choice, either pardon Trump (which one won’t work and two would cripple Pence’s chance of wining in 2020) or allow Trump to be sent to jail (in which case any dirt Trump has on Pence is coming out and the Trump diehards are probably staying home in 2020 or voting for Don Jr as a third party candidate).

Plus as terrible as Pence is, he’s one already got the power to do what he wants (where do you think the bans on trans people in the military came from?) and two less likely to hand state secrets to Russia or have to be dragged from the White House by force upon loosing an election.

Edited by Silasw on Apr 19th 2019 at 12:55:05 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#277954: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:52:14 PM

I mean you can be impeached and not be kicked out. Clinton I think was impeached, but then managed to not have enough people to vote him out. Impeached just means put on trial to start the process of being fired. At least as far as I remember.

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Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#277955: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:53:40 PM

Also, it doesn't really matter who's next in line after Donald if what you care about is the principle of the thing, i.e if Donald has done enough to be impeached, then he should be.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#277956: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:54:32 PM

Technically yes, but it’s generally being used a shorthand for Trump being impeached by the house and convicted by the senate.

Nobody wants Trump impeached then found innocent.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#277957: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:54:36 PM

I think the whole point of the trial was to damage the democratic party as a whole,if it didn't remove Clinton from office it tarnished their reputation and probably lead to where they now

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MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#277958: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:54:39 PM

I'd also argue that even if they start the impeachment process, it would take ages for it to go through. And we are in the back half of an incredibly sluggish (horrifying yes, but we can't exactly call it fast acting) term.

Edited by MrAHR on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:54:56 AM

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AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#277959: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:55:31 PM

@ Kakusan; Yeah, because that's how our line of succession works. But in any event, what I gathered from Pelosi is that impeachment hearings would be held in the president friendly Republican held Senate, and thus at this point and thus is literally impossible while the upcoming election is a good way to oust him.

That said I'm actually kind of "meh" about whether impeachment should start; I know the House is going to proceed with their hearings since Mueller's already being called to testify in front of the... I don't know if it's the whole House or just a committee?

I will say that "but what if they fail?" seems like a poor argument for not going to impeachment, though. Democrats shouldn't be doing things out of fear based decisions, as far as I'm concerned, and voters tend to like visible effort even if it doesn't always end up the way you want.

Edit: WELP I thought I was typing faster than that.

Edited by AceofSpades on Apr 19th 2019 at 7:56:20 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277960: Apr 19th 2019 at 5:58:03 PM

I’m trying to control my temper here, but I think some of you are missing the point.

This is not about political calculus. It is about the soul of the goddamn nation. We have a goddamn mafia boss for a president. It is doubtful that the 2020 elections will be free and fair, given the rampant voter suppression by the GOP, gerrymandering, and our vulnerable election system that the Russians have already tried to mess with.

Impeachment is not about whether it succeeds or not, it’s about taking a goddamn moral stand and saying this is not OK.

Edit: reminder, the House has hearings to investigate whether to impeach; the entire process would be in the house until they decide whether or not impeachment is warranted. Then it goes to the Senate, which decides whether or not to convict. So, imagine a year of Maxine Waters and AOC and the others, having hearings exposing every bit of corruption, only for the Senate to say they don’t care.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 19th 2019 at 6:03:02 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277961: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:02:32 PM

One thing this whole thing has exposed is the anger a lot of Democrats have been feeling and how the differences on how to proceed are not at all small.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#277962: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:03:40 PM

I must have the spine of the jellyfish if I think a moral stand that leads to failure and ridicule is not worth it,right?

Because I would't have the guts to try it

Edited by Ultimatum on Apr 19th 2019 at 1:04:30 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#277963: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:04:50 PM

There are other ways to say that what’s Trump ha done are not okay, personally I’m partial to winning in 2020 and having a democrat run Do J arrest and charge Trump for his crimes.

There is no quick fix, it’s a long fight and we can’t risk throwing a key battle (2020) to make a symbolic point.

I don’t want us to take a moral stand and say Trump is bad and should be in jail, I want us to win and drag the fucker to jail.

Edited by Silasw on Apr 19th 2019 at 1:06:04 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#277964: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:11:08 PM

I want Trump GONE. I want him GONE AND IN JAIL. He CANNOT be normalized. I REFUSE to live in a future where children are taught about the Presidents in school, and Trump is Just Another President, no different than the rest. Trump needs to ROT IN JAIL FOR LIFE. He STOLE THE PRESIDENCY. If we DON'T impeach him, that sends a message that WE ARE WEAK AND WE ARE TOTALLY FINE TOLERATING DICTATORS.

It's the goddamn PRINCIPLE of the thing, you COWARDS. We NEED to impeach Trump because Trump is a CRIMINAL who deserves to be in JAIL. If we DON'T even ATTEMPT to impeach Trump, THAT tells the general public that Trump was TELLING THE TRUTH AND IT WAS ALL A WITCH-HUNT!

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277965: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:15:06 PM

[up] Basically.

The Constitution doesn’t say only impeach if you’re superduper positive that everybody already agrees with you, otherwise, just wait till the next election year.

Plus, again, THE 2020 ELECTIONS WILL NOT BE FAIR AND FREE. Look at what happened in Georgia in 2018! Voter suppression and gerrymandering are already skewing our system, plus we’ve not secured our voting machines! What, like Russia’s just gonna not try again?

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 19th 2019 at 6:17:40 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#277966: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:20:57 PM

@Wisewillow: Ok, that clears up what the procedure is, because I didn't know the whole thing. In any case, yeah, with Mitch Mc Connell in charge I can very much see the Senate (Him) saying that they don't care. Which means a lot of pressure needs to be put on the guy if impeachment proceedings are to continue at that point. I wouldn't call that a failure on the Democrat's part, necessarily, considering that Mc Connell is very open about how little fucks he gives about what Democrats want. I would hope that then that the Democrats strategize a way to work around him.

Hm... this might be a situation where how vitriolic widespread public opinion is makes the difference, since a lot of things happen because the people are pissed off at their representatives.

Edit: Ok guys, but yelling at us is not going to help things. Maybe take a break away from the keyboard.

Edited by AceofSpades on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:26:08 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#277967: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:22:53 PM

A moral stand isn’t worth shit if it only makes things worse, and that’s exactly what going for impeachment will do.

And no offense, but if you think that moral stand is worth four more years of Trump and friends hurting and killing marginalized people you have your priorities backwards.

They should have sent a poet.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277968: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:24:18 PM

Oh my god. Trying to impeach doesn’t guarantee Trump a 2020 victory; stop trying to preemptively surrender.

“We’re not fighting for impeachment because it’s not worth it” isn’t exactly gonna inspire Dem voters to the polls.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 19th 2019 at 6:25:30 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#277969: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:25:00 PM

It sure as hell doesn’t make it any easier. The chances of it blowing back on Democrats are very high even if it succeeds.

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#277970: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:26:08 PM

a message that WE ARE WEAK AND WE ARE TOTALLY FINE TOLERATING DICTATORS.

A majority of the political power holders in the US are and so are a large amount of the American public, I’m sorry to be the one to break it to you but that message is true for much of the untied (I meant to write United here but the spelling error is to funny for me to ninja fix it) states.

Now we can work on dismantling the situation at hand or we can try and make ourselves feel better. I want Trump in jail too, the best chance we have of getting him in jail is with a democrat picked AG in 2021, not with an impeachment that will fail and could keep the democrats out of power for years.

[up]X5 If 2020 is rigged enough for Trump to win than we cross that bridge when we come to it, the democrat candidate can refuse to accept the election result and can reach out to international allies to recognise them as the legitimate leader on the US, they can work with state governments to redirect funding to a new federal government lead that stands in opposition to one installed by Russia.

Edited by Silasw on Apr 19th 2019 at 1:28:02 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277971: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:26:11 PM

[up][up]The republicans failed to impeach Clinton and have been pretty successfully destroying the country since then, so I fail to see any proof of that.

Don’t take decisive action because maybe it will go badly is the excuse of cowards. The GOP does whatever the hell they want and they keep winning, because confidence and using the power you have works (as does cheating, but let’s NOT do that).

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 19th 2019 at 6:28:47 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#277972: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:26:49 PM

I don't really think we can know for certain how impeachment proceedings will affect public opinion. There's a lot of variables at play with that, I don't think it's fair to say that it will definitively boost Donald's chances of winning in 2020 or even necessarily that it's likely.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277973: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:27:31 PM

The impeachment of Bill both helped him in his re-election and made him toxic to doing any of his policies.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#277974: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:28:21 PM

[up][up][up] Then you haven’t been paying attention to the modern political landscape. An impeachment here isn’t going to be an easy dunk, it’s going to be fuel on the fire for a resurgent right regardless of what happens. Even bringing it up as an option is bad for the Democrats at this point, they should be focused on doing some actual tangible good.

Edited by archonspeaks on Apr 19th 2019 at 6:28:43 AM

They should have sent a poet.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277975: Apr 19th 2019 at 6:29:50 PM

You have clearly not read literally anything I posted in the last several pages. I never fucking said it would be easy, or even succeed. I said that was beside the point.

Please re-read my posts before you try to imply that I am a carefree idiot who isn’t informed about the political landscape.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 19th 2019 at 6:31:56 AM


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