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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
I can sort of get the feeling of "even if it won't work, we should still try just to establish it still matters", but I don't think we're in dire need of reminding about that, just yet.
I don't think most people who aren't hardcore Trump supporters think stuff like this doesn't matter just because an impeachment attempt that would inevitably fail wasn't made.
I'd say it's a pretty clear Morton's Fork. There's honestly nothing they can do, but trying to do something just isn't enough sometimes.
Edited by PhysicalStamina on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:15:19 AM
i'm tired, my friendAnd in this case, they end with nothing changed, and Trump goes right back to doing all that, probably more and worse than before somehow.
Plus, I'm pretty sure whatever dirt an impeachment hearing on Trump would "bring into the light" everybody who's been paying attention already knows. And the only people who would tune in re the ones who have been paying attention, so...
Edited by PhysicalStamina on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:19:30 AM
i'm tired, my friendDo you know what also does that? Investigations and they don't have a chance of exploding in our face.
Trying and failing isn't worth it if it gives Trump the 2020 election.
Yes, doing nothing establishes that with the Senate majority the President can do what they want. But do you know what else establishes it? Trying to impeach him and failing, which is inevitable. So that's not a good argument.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 19th 2019 at 5:24:31 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangYeah, they can, cause if the house has lots of hearings and drags corruption into the light (which it will), and senate overrules? Then you have a pissed off Dem base, plus pissed off nonvoters, all storming to the polls like 2018 on steroids, but in a presidential election year when overall Dem turnout is already higher.
Now would be a good time to bring up the question of who the voters would be pissed off at. Because assuming they'd all lay the blame on Republicans is a bit on the optimistic side. Let's remind ourselves that "both sides suck" is still a very prevalent belief in our society. 2018 didn't change that.
Edited by PhysicalStamina on Apr 19th 2019 at 8:27:46 AM
i'm tired, my friendWhich is automatic without impeachment.
I think there's a lot of key differences here between it and Bill's.
Not the least being the Trump supporters are almost all believers Democrats are pedophile communists to begin with.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 19th 2019 at 5:28:15 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.I don't really see any reason to believe this, they could just as easily decide that it means that the Democrats were being partisan and Trump is innocent or it's not clear.
It's really worth repeating that the American public adores #bothsides and thus a failed impeachment could easily feed into that impulse. If they didnt' then we would have President Clinton.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangHere’s an article on why the House must impeach.
Key takeaway:
The public has the right to information and to make up its own mind. Our media is largely sponsored by dictators or dictated by sponsors. It is critical that officials present evidence to the public directly. This is not a partisan issue; it is a matter of public safety – Trump’s supporters have as much right to the truth as do Trump’s opponents. We are Americans, and we are in this together.
...
All Trump cares about is money, power and being immune from prosecution. Impeachment hearings actually threaten all three of these things. Attempted jibes do not. The message Pelosi conveys when she says Trump is “not worth it” is that it is not worth holding him accountable for crimes that have resulted in the loss of human life and the ongoing destruction of our nation.
Pelosi may not have intended for this to be her message, but that is how many received it. She hurled a grenade into progressives and wounded many with her words. She may think we can vote Trump out, but she has hurt that very cause. We have heard from younger voters and voters from marginalized groups who no longer want to vote for the Democratic candidate because her flippant dismissal of impeachment as an outcome has led them to believe that the two parties are the same. They are not the same: one party is an existential threat, and one party is deeply flawed. We encourage you to support the Democratic candidate in 2020. But we demand that the Democrats confront our grim reality head on – that there may not be a 2020, that there may not be free and fair elections, and that every day is damage done. It may be a partisan game to you, Speaker Pelosi, but for the rest of us, and for this country, it is a matter of life or death.
It is critical that the stakes are made clear. Refusal to impeach sends the message that the situation cannot possibly be that dire – it if were, the Democrats would move to impeach, right? This is the same disastrous miscalculation that gave us an unpunished cadre of criminals from Watergate, Iran-Contra, the War on Iraq, and the 2008 financial crisis – criminals who are working with the White House right now! This is not a comparative study; this is literally the same people committing crimes over and over without repercussions. We would not even been dealing with this crisis if officials had acted with conscience and conviction earlier, and brought these criminal elites to justice.
Let us be clear: we do not think that, if the House impeaches Trump, the GOP-dominated Senate will convict. We also do not think that if the Senate, by some miracle, impeaches Trump, that he will leave. Trump has made it clear he will not leave office even if the will of the people demands it in an election, and even if the will of Congress demands it in impeachment. Trump is an aspiring autocrat, and the GOP is seeking a one-party state.
So what is the point of the House impeaching Trump? An informed public is a powerful public, and hearings are the best way of informing the people on what the White House has done. Autocrats and wannabe autocrats live by their brands, and a symbolic vote of impeachment by the House, sending the world the message that the United States still stands for the rule of law, damages the Trump brand and leaves a mark on it that Ivanka must carry with her as she continues to represent us abroad. The House must begin impeachment proceedings to help restore America's standing in the world and because it is their constitutional duty.
Impeachment sends a message about who we are as a country and what we will accept and abide. The rule of law demands action. Refusing to take action is normalizing atrocity. Lawlessness must be confronted regardless of the outcome, as a matter of principle and conscience. Fighting only the battles that you know you will win is a sure way of ensuring you lose; preemptive surrender, in a rapidly consolidating autocracy, is permanent surrender. The American people have suffered enough under Trump; they should not have to suffer due to Pelosi’s capitulation as well. We all deserve better than this.
And here’s Elizabeth Warren’s take:
The Mueller report lays out facts showing that a hostile foreign government attacked our 2016 election to help Donald Trump and Donald Trump welcomed that help. Once elected, Donald Trump obstructed the investigation into that attack.
Mueller put the next step in the hands of Congress: “Congress has authority to prohibit a President’s corrupt use of his authority in order to protect the integrity of the administration of justice.” The correct process for exercising that authority is impeachment.
To ignore a President’s repeated efforts to obstruct an investigation into his own disloyal behavior would inflict great and lasting damage on this country, and it would suggest that both the current and future Presidents would be free to abuse their power in similar ways.
The severity of this misconduct demands that elected officials in both parties set aside political considerations and do their constitutional duty. That means the House should initiate impeachment proceedings against the President of the United States.
I’m not sure that it’s the public that adore bothsidism as much as the media do, they then pass that bias onto the public.
I don’t want impeachment tried unless we can be reasonable certain that the headline from CNN will be “Republicans defend Trump’s criminal activities in attempt to maintain power” rather than, “Impeachment in action, much needed oversight or partisan witch hunt? You decide.”
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
And here's the post I made in response the last time that blurb was posted
, with the added point that to the general public, the point of impeachment attempts is to get rid of the president. If Dems proceed with a hearing, knowing it won't remove him from office, solely to highlight wrongdoings even they know about, they aren't going to see a symbolic denouncement of Trump's presidency; they're going to see a party that couldn't get Trump out of office and decide that Dems can't do anything right, which feeds back into the "both sides" narrative people love to hold.

Yeah, I want to give the president the boot as much as anybody (if not moreso), but we must be a little pragmatic about it. A failed impeachment would only fan the flames of the "libruls are too emotional/irrational" strawman and vindicate Trump's "Witch Hunt" rhetoric.
However, that doesn't mean impeachment has to be off the table. There are still ongoing investigations. And a man as incompetent as Trump is fated to slip up eventually.
Edited by MorningStar1337 on Apr 19th 2019 at 4:50:14 AM