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AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#277751: Apr 18th 2019 at 11:33:42 AM

[up] I haven't finished, but thus far its so heavily redacted when talking about him that I don't think you're going to get anything substantive on that front. Thus far, it mostly has redacted anything in sections that might pertain to that.

I mean, page 30 is one big redaction box.

Edit: I like this pagetopper, [Harm to Ongoing Matter] out of 10.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 18th 2019 at 2:35:24 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#277752: Apr 18th 2019 at 11:35:24 AM

still hoping the underacted report leaks anyway

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#277753: Apr 18th 2019 at 11:36:49 AM

The consensus on MSNBC is that Mueller couldn't find anything to declare Trump innocent, and was intending to leave it up to Congress whether or not to prosecute Trump because he believes that he himself doesn't have the power to indict a sitting president. And what happened was Barr trying to declare Trump as close to innocent as possible. (I think it says something that even Barr's original memo says "doesn't exonerate".)

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#277754: Apr 18th 2019 at 11:38:50 AM

Honestly, was anybody ever thinking that there was even a fraction of a chance that Trump would be charged, let alone removed from office? Once in office, a president is basically above the law and thus untouchable.

Even Nixon didn't face any charges after resigning.

Edited by Forenperser on Apr 18th 2019 at 8:39:03 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#277755: Apr 18th 2019 at 11:40:38 AM

What we can read is basically a big yes on obstruction and leans very collusion-adjacent.

The problem is... I'd like to see under the black, please. And, even then, collusion is up to the definition Congress chooses to give it.

If not actively, directly colluding in bold italic, we've certainly got the use of other people's dodgy as hell, independent collusions... and sticking to self-contradictory denial. tongue

Edited by Euodiachloris on Apr 18th 2019 at 7:41:58 PM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#277756: Apr 18th 2019 at 11:41:16 AM

[up][up]

The biggest one was the Trump Tower meeting, which Mueller declined to prosecute Trump Jr. and Kushner:

But among other factors, Mueller explained, he would have faced a high burden to prove that Trump Jr had a “culpable mental state”. He said prosecutors could not be confident that they would secure convictions, which justice department rules require.

Aside from that, the collusion conclusion was effectively "We can't prove collusion ties, but we also can't disprove them either" - which is far from saying "We found no evidence".

It also doesn't help that, as noted in the public version (using The Guardian's article for reference): Mueller said his investigation was hindered by some witnesses lying to them. Some Trump allies invoked their fifth amendment right to not incriminate themselves, he wrote, and some deleted electronic messages that could have been helpful. Donald Trump Jr declined to be interviewed voluntarily by Mueller’s team.

So yeah, destruction of evidence is inarguably obstruction of justice. Problem is, it can be rather hard to prove - hence "no-knock" raids on drug dealers because they might flush the worst of the stuff down the toilet.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277757: Apr 18th 2019 at 11:50:07 AM

Collusion isn’t a thing- the issue here is conspiracy and/or obstruction.

The president is absolutely NOT above the law, or we’d have a king/dictator. None of this is fucking normal or legal.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#277758: Apr 18th 2019 at 11:57:43 AM

I'm not saying I like this or this is the way it should be.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#277759: Apr 18th 2019 at 12:03:28 PM

[up][up]Yeah, the reason Trump can legally get away with constantly blaring "no collusion" is because "collusion" isn't a legal term.

And I agree, it's horrifying that people are just accepting "the President is above the law".

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 18th 2019 at 12:04:09 PM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#277760: Apr 18th 2019 at 12:06:22 PM

[up][up][up]

To be clear, I meant collusion as "active coordination", which would likely fall under conspiracy charges. Problem is, you can't (reasonably) be charged for passive coordination in a situation like that, since you may legitimately have had no idea about it. And the US court system operates on making the prosecution prove the guilt of the accused beyond a reasonable - which in this case, is an unfortunately high bar to cross.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#277761: Apr 18th 2019 at 12:07:21 PM

This nonpartisan guy breaks it down.

There may be RICO charges, among others. A lot of the stuff could be taken by State Courts, which don't care about Presidential Pardons.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#277762: Apr 18th 2019 at 12:08:58 PM

Happy Complete and Total EXONERATION DAY!!....

PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT!

Wait what?

Edited by megaeliz on Apr 18th 2019 at 3:12:17 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277763: Apr 18th 2019 at 12:09:43 PM

[up][up] That’s why mob bosses live on innuendo- the underlings know what’s expected, but prosecution is tough.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#277764: Apr 18th 2019 at 12:22:17 PM

I’ve not been able to read it yet, but from what I’ve heard, a lot of the redacted stuff seems to be about ongoing investigations, such as Julian Assange and Wikileaks or the Internet Research Agency etc. (remember, the investigation wasn’t just a criminal one.)

Congress should get to see the unredacted (or at least minimally redacted, if there’s anything really sensitive) report though.

Edited by megaeliz on Apr 18th 2019 at 3:40:32 PM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#277765: Apr 18th 2019 at 12:34:52 PM

[up]

That is indeed the case, from what I've seen posted here.

[up][up]

Yeah, Trump relies heavily on Could Say It, But... tactics

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#277766: Apr 18th 2019 at 1:06:09 PM

I dunno, he was extremely clumsy when handling James Comey, according to the latter's memos.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#277767: Apr 18th 2019 at 1:08:14 PM

But Cohen made it clear in his own testimony that that's how Trump operates.

[down] Why?

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 18th 2019 at 2:17:58 AM

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#277768: Apr 18th 2019 at 1:17:15 PM

If so, this may be extremely relevant.

Pelosi seems to think that the Progressive wing of the democrat party is "like five people" and that the center needs to be "held".

This strikes me as very disconnected from the electoral reality on the ground. If the folks on the ground aren't given HOPE that there will be CHANGE, they won't show up to the polls in sufficient numbers.

[down]They don't need a good argument. An argument is enough.

Edited by Oruka on Apr 18th 2019 at 1:38:54 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#277769: Apr 18th 2019 at 1:36:50 PM

So, if I get this correctly they are basically arguing that Trump didn't obstruct justice because he did it in public?

Whut?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277770: Apr 18th 2019 at 1:55:13 PM

He didn't obstruct justice because the people he asked to didn't obstruct justice because it was illegal.

"Attempted Obstruction" is not a crime.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 18th 2019 at 1:55:26 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#277771: Apr 18th 2019 at 1:58:28 PM

That seems to be the sticking point. If the President ordered illegal acts, but no illegal acts were in fact committed, then there is no actual crime, as long as ordering illegal acts is not a crime in and of itself.

That said, it is entirely possible to be convicted for attempting to commit a crime. Just because you didn't succeed doesn't change the fact that you tried.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 18th 2019 at 5:02:23 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277772: Apr 18th 2019 at 1:59:41 PM

That’s not how it works. I’ll find a good explanation when I get home; for now, I would like to point out, that it is very, very important, that Mueller started from an assumption that he could not indict a president.

The entire report is premised on the fact that he basically punted to Congress. Please keep that in mind.

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#277773: Apr 18th 2019 at 2:01:42 PM

That said, it is entirely possible to be prosecuted for attempting to commit a crime. Just because you didn't succeed doesn't change the fact that you tried.
"Attempted murder. Honestly, what is that? Do they give an award for attempted chemistry?!"

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#277774: Apr 18th 2019 at 2:05:44 PM

I think a large part of it is that Muller is a Republican and so it Donald Trump, a Republican bringing down their Republican President doesn't sit right with him,punting it to congress means he doesn't make the decision that would (in the eyes other Republicans at least) make him a traitor,that's party politics for you

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277775: Apr 18th 2019 at 2:08:24 PM

The idea that Mueller has some party loyalty influencing his views is a weird accusation given that if he did then he wouldn't have investigated Donald Trump to begin with or spent millions of dollars under heavy pressure to drop events.

I'm also confused at the "punting to Congress" as that is the law.

And he is a traitor to his fellow Republicans and has been for a year.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 18th 2019 at 2:08:57 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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