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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277526: Apr 16th 2019 at 7:52:43 AM

They did try to steer the town hall in that direction. To Sander's credit, he didn't take the bait.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#277527: Apr 16th 2019 at 7:53:03 AM

I'm the last person to defend Trump, but yeah, I gotta agree with those saying that there are way, WAY worse people out there that could become president. Hell, some of them already WERE president. Seriously, ever since Trump got into office, people are way to forgiving of previous presidents, like Bush for example.

Edited by Forenperser on Apr 16th 2019 at 4:54:50 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#277528: Apr 16th 2019 at 7:54:09 AM

I'll also add in the interests of honesty that since the people I follow on Twitter are not Sanders fans, the little I've heard of his performance was exclusively about things he said to that effect. But I will actually read up on his full remarks and maybe watch the recording as well.

[up] Eh. I think it's a tough call and kind of gets into a topic of worst person versus worst president and whether being personally nicer and more decent counterweights worse actions. Like most obviously, Trump as of yet has thankfully not presided over as many deaths as Bush, but it's not because of better intentions. And Bush actually tried to combat Islamophobia, while Trump does everything he can to spread it and encourage hate crimes. Although again, Bush presided under a large bodycount of Muslims, it's just that they were Muslims in other countries (which IMO does make some difference, just not much of one).

[down] Yeah, fair point. That being said, at least Jackson was a loving husband and he adopted a Native American kid, even though I assume he probably thought of him as a pet. And I guess you could say he backed up being a bloodthirsty nut by being an actual brave soldier...

[down][down] Johnson was also a good husband as far as I know and has an inspiring story of pulling himself up from nothing. But yeah, definitely a good illustration of that maxim (which I think comes from Lincoln) about finding the measure of a man when you give him power. And Johnson's measure was as a racist saboteur who decided to get his own back on the plantation aristocrats who looked down on him by magnanimously granting them their power back with the knowledge he had given it to them.

Edited by Hodor2 on Apr 16th 2019 at 10:06:13 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277529: Apr 16th 2019 at 7:56:11 AM

[up][up]Let's...let's not restart a "is Trump worse than past Presidents" argument.

The only one I'd say was arguably worse than Trump was probably Andrew Jackson.

Seriously, Jackson was a monster.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#277530: Apr 16th 2019 at 8:02:53 AM

Andrew Johnson and his sabotage of Reconstruction dwarf almost anything Trump has pulled, excluding climate change obstruction.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#277531: Apr 16th 2019 at 8:04:40 AM

Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Jackson......the list goes on. Honestly, there have been tons of horrible presidents throughout the US history. Trump wasn't the first and he most certainly won't be the last.

That is NOT to diminish his crimes, once again, it is just a pretty sad fact.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#277532: Apr 16th 2019 at 8:12:03 AM

I will note with pleasure that the Fox hosts were evidently very flustered that Sanders got so much positive attention at the town hall. So either they're really deep in their own media bubble or, more cynically, the audience was supposed to be stacked with the typical Fox viewers and someone screwed up behind the scenes.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#277533: Apr 16th 2019 at 8:20:32 AM

'Cause that's what the audience will hear when you open like that. And it will immediately make them defensive, and then the entire thing is an exercise in futility.

The aim isn’t to win them over, we can’t turn Fox into MSNBC by sending democrats to appear on it. What we can do is turn it into CNN, instead of republicans spurting lies and viewers believing them because the lies go unchallenged I want the CNN effect, I want everyone yelling at each other and calling them a liar so much that viewers don’t know who to believe and figure everyone is bad and they should stay home.

Now that’s a tactic for appearing on their actual shows, a town hall is different and if Sander’s approach works (and sticks after the town hall people spend the next couple months being told not to believe what they saw at the town hall) then that’s what should be done for town hall events where you’re interacting with the viewers directly. Though I still think that at some point he should have taken a shot at the Fox hosts, because those shots need to be taken.

But the normal shows, I want to turn them into shouting matches that leave viewers with zero information, because that’s a step up from their current status as progoganda bullhorns that leave viewers believing lies.

Edited by Silasw on Apr 16th 2019 at 3:21:56 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#277534: Apr 16th 2019 at 8:41:07 AM

>But the normal shows, I want to turn them into shouting matches that leave viewers with zero information, because that’s a step up from their current status as progoganda bullhorns that leave viewers believing lies.

Nope, they already like the hosts and the people they already know. If someone shows up and turns it into a shouting match, they look like the unreasonable one. So if anything, it's going to do more damage by reinforcing the disinformation they are already being given.

Edited by Soban on Apr 16th 2019 at 11:41:40 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#277535: Apr 16th 2019 at 8:50:36 AM

I have recently listened to a few of "how I found my way out of the alt-right" videos (I am talking of those who fell down the pewdiepie-pipeline and made it back, not of the ones which are full-blown Nazis), and a LOT of them said that the first step was seeing someone who they admired arguing someone else who took their arguments apart. And naturally they didn't encounter those arguments by watching left-wing channels, they went to cheer on those they admired and were given something to think about, which eventually lead to them seeking out more left-wing voices.

So while it is important to be careful WHAT kind of shows you visit, I wouldn't say that there is no merit whatsoever to turn up in the Fox bubble, if you come well prepared and be able to push back against their cheaper tricks. I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to do it, but honestly, if someone can get away with it, an old white guy who is rhetorically very capable has a better chance than most.

There are also different shades of Fox programming. There are one or two pundits who have at least some interest in sticking to the facts. It's not much, but nobody says that one has to start penetrating the bubble by, I don't know, arguing against Tucker Carlson.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#277536: Apr 16th 2019 at 8:52:15 AM

Let’s not forget that Fox News isn’t the only arm of the propaganda machine, even if it’s the biggest and most obvious one. Sinclair also owns a lot of local radio stations, which they use to provide the same style of rhetoric and keep their base hooked in the cycle.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Apr 16th 2019 at 11:56:26 AM

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speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#277537: Apr 16th 2019 at 8:54:54 AM

There are also different shades of Fox programming. There are one or two pundits who have at least some interest in sticking to the facts. It's not much, but nobody says that one has to start penetrating the bubble by, I don't know, arguing against Tucker Carlson.
True that. I respect Shep Smith for going against the grain and calling out falsehoods. Of course, because of this, he gets most of the hate mail from regular Fox News viewers.

Edited by speedyboris on Apr 16th 2019 at 10:55:14 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#277538: Apr 16th 2019 at 8:58:40 AM

[up] Yeah, I was pretty much thinking about him. He basically called out some right wingers for trying to link the Notre Dame fire to something sinister, starting to claim in advance that there would be attempts to explain it away, and Smith first told him off and then made abundantly clear that the first started in the construction area and that we will have to wait until the investigation is concluded but that for now, neither him nor the guy on the phone, did have any knowledge about what the cause was. And not in a smarmy "this is my disclaimer" way, he seemed to be really angry about the attempts to seize on the tragedy (not that it is any surprise if you let someone like this guy phone in on your show, but I guess he has to work with what is given to him).

Edited by Swanpride on Apr 16th 2019 at 9:00:25 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#277539: Apr 16th 2019 at 9:12:18 AM

Tucker Carlson just flat out doesn't air segments if they don't feed his hate-mongering. Don't think we'll get much going in that direction anyway.

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#277540: Apr 16th 2019 at 9:27:23 AM

Tucker Carlson has outed himself as a fraud on several occasions, by directly saying so.

Only a live debate is acceptable.

Though I wonder why more TV shows don't do the "measured response" format. It works well on the Tube of You.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#277541: Apr 16th 2019 at 9:31:26 AM

So while it is important to be careful WHAT kind of shows you visit, I wouldn't say that there is no merit whatsoever to turn up in the Fox bubble, if you come well prepared and be able to push back against their cheaper tricks. I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to do it, but honestly, if someone can get away with it, an old white guy who is rhetorically very capable has a better chance than most.

This is true.

I honestly think that this might be the best use of Bernie Sanders. Skip the Presidential run, stop trying to figure out how to have general political appeal, and put that Cult of Personality Charisma to good use winning over FOX's viewership.

Bernie Sanders appeals to one type of voter, and only one type of voter: middle-income white guys. But he appeals to them hard. So he should go spread Democratic ideas to middle-income white guys, which just so happens to be an overwhelming number of Republican voters.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 16th 2019 at 10:34:58 AM

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AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#277542: Apr 16th 2019 at 9:47:41 AM

[up] That's...uh...not true. He's imfamous mostly for appealing to millennials, and Gallup shows him more popular with non-white people than white people overall, mostly it appears due to the influence of the Republican Party. Plus, most of his policies are not even designed to appeal to middle income people anyway, focusing mostly on poorer Americans.

And according to this Vox article, he ranks rather low among white men in general, being even lower than his average for white voters. He's actually, surprisingly, arguably doing his worst among white men.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 16th 2019 at 12:50:36 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#277543: Apr 16th 2019 at 9:59:59 AM

Huh...countrapoint mentioned in her trump segment that Bernie doesn't appeal all that well to Latino voters, and that being one of the reasons he lost the nomination against Hillary. I admit, I kind of assumed that he doesn't do all that well with non-white overall. Though his appeal to younger voters didn't escape me. I think it might be the grandfather effect.

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#277544: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:18:01 AM

That might have been true in 2016 when a lot of people hadn't heard of him. The Bernie brand has since been burning bright.

Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#277545: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:20:21 AM

I'm curious as to how he polls with nonwhites when not put all together. For instance, how does he poll with Native Americans?

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#277546: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:27:37 AM

Well, his lack of nonwhite appeal is obvious: he's very tone-deaf when it comes to race, and too reliant on the orthodox Marxist playbook that says class is everything, when they know damn well that the working class is a crab bucket, and doubly so when it's black guys who are getting pulled down.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#277547: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:40:30 AM

As far as I can tell, Bernie has it the wrong was around. He seems to think that race issues and social issues are the same, meaning if you lift up the ones who are socially in disadvantage, it will automatically solve racism. It never seems to occur to him that racism in itself is causing socially disadvantages and that every program to lift poorer people up has the tendency to just leave certain groups behind because of racism (or sexism for that matter).

And especially the black community should know better. They have experienced this kind of BS in the past.

fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#277548: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:43:19 AM

He’s also not so great on foreign policy. I’m hoping he doesn’t get the nomination because his brand of protectionism and racism apologia is the last thing we need.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#277549: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:47:58 AM

and he wants dump nuclear waste near poor people or something

In general,his ideas are great if you listen to the first part and ignore everything else

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#277550: Apr 16th 2019 at 10:48:26 AM

I haven't heard Sanders mention protectionism in a while. Does anyone have his current foreign policies handy in a summarized form?


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