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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#277351: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:20:34 AM

My liberal awakening as a Social Democrat happened in college thanks to my theater teacher ramming radical socialism into our heads on a daily basis. For better or worse, it stuck.

Edited by kkhohoho on Apr 12th 2019 at 12:20:56 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277352: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:23:31 AM

[up][up]I used to be with you, as far as the social liberal and fiscal conservative angle.

Then it was repeatedly pointed out to me that you can’t really be both. If you want social equality, that requires investment in infrastructure, education, etc.

“Fiscal responsibility” generally doesn’t encompass government spending on progressive social safety nets and safety/labor regulations.

Plus someone pointed out to me that while welfare spending often gets bemoaned as wasteful, where do we find the money, etc.... those arguments rarely come up for military spending or corporate/1% tax cuts. They had a point.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 12th 2019 at 10:23:46 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277353: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:27:58 AM

[up] I'm no ideologue. I'm perfectly willing to accept that our system needs a lot of regulation and some tax hikes. That's not mutually exclusive with being a capitalist.

I have also long since let go of the idea that welfare is only something for lazy people.

We already have proof that massive tax cuts don't really help economies: the so-called Kansas experiment. And only a willfully blind ideologue would ignore the results of an experiment.

Capitalism is actually a very flexible system. The danger lies in the system being run by either completely unscrupulous unchecked kleptocrats and/or willfully blind fanatic free-market lolbertarian ideologues.

The free market is much like free speech — you need to have some regulation in both to prevent the powerful from trampling the powerless, otherwise the spirit of both is lost.

Edited by M84 on Apr 13th 2019 at 1:33:45 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#277354: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:37:41 AM

For me, I was pretty much a republican, but not extreme as was pretty much my entire family. I was very big into Romney, and still am. (Him running for president is the only thing that I can think of that will make me vote republican again. That's probably not going to happen.) However, when Trump announced his intention to run as a Republican, that triggered a lot of thinking, not just in me, but my whole family. I realized that the party that most closely aligned to the values that I have pretty much always held was the Libertarian party. I think everyone in my family voted Libertarian. I'm the left most, but not the most extreme, my brother is an anarchist and the one who articulated the arguments the best.

For me, I feel that what changed me as opposed to the rest of my family is that I had a lot of friends who were LGBT+ and POC that were not also friends with my siblings.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#277355: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:38:13 AM

I just read the other wiki's page on the Kansas experiment. Most of it was more elaboration on what I already knew, but it was both hilarious and depressing to read the defenses given. Depressing mainly becuase I know people who would give way to any possible explanation.

My musician page
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277356: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:40:07 AM

I mean, what's the point of an experiment if you're going to deny the results just because they aren't the results you wanted?

Only a complete fucking idiot or a willfully blind ideologue denies what is right in front of their face.

You know it was bad when even the state Republicans agreed to raise taxes again.

Edited by M84 on Apr 13th 2019 at 1:40:34 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#277357: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:40:14 AM

My youth ideology was basically just broad anti-establishment. Politician "insiders" were just a dirty cabal, afraid of any meaningful change, who chose their preferred puppets over the people. Now my most admired woman is Pelosi, for comparison.

Life is unfair...
ciyinwanderer Since: Dec, 2018
#277358: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:44:08 AM

I have read so many examples of people moving from conservative to liberal, even though the stereotype is the opposite.

What's funny is that in high school I was known for being in-your-face about my Christian faith (always wearing religious themed t-shirts and listened to almost only Christian bands) and so people always thought I was ultra conservative. But even in my most (embarrassingly) fanatical moments, I could never buy all the way into conservatism. I've moved far further to the left now, which I think would shock all those people who never noticed the early signs:

I was in the drama club and had zero problem with the large percentage of LGBT members. If Christians pressed I played the "love the sinner, hate the sin" card since at the time that was the only vocabulary I had for "why shouldn't Christians treat the LGBT community like crap", but in reality I just didn't feel any need to condemn the "sin" at all, and was glad some of my close friends were in relationships that made them happy.

During the 'mock elections' we had during the 2000 election, I never once voted for Bush. I either voted Nader to try and get a third party on the stage or abstained because I didn't like either candidate.

This signature was thumped to preserve the dignity of the moderators.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277359: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:44:20 AM

[up][up]It's usually a good idea to take anyone claiming to be "anti-establishment" with a grain of salt. Especially considering the history of people who used this rhetoric (namely populists).

[up]It's less that liberals switch to conservative, but more like what counts as a liberal changes over time, and some of these former liberals fail to change with those times.

Edited by M84 on Apr 13th 2019 at 1:46:24 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#277360: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:54:01 AM

[up]And the so-called "anti-establishment" choices never seem to care about the doings of those who I'd call The Man in Front of the Man, namely the lobbying corporations or propaganda mills who have more influence over countries by having laws changed or pushing the culture in their desired direction. But then, they arent the government, so why should the anti-establishment care?

My musician page
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#277361: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:55:26 AM

I had some leftist leanings in my youth already (i was pro gay marriage, pro welfare state, among other positionsç but i had lot of sexism, racism, and ableism I hadn't unpacked so I was kind of a turd as a teenager honestly. Even my first posts on this forum when I was starting to become more accepting of social justice make me shake my head now.

I think the main thing was me distancing myself from the online friend group I had growing up. Back then I was a very lonely and insecure kid who wanted to be liked, so I was willing to put up with a lot and make a lot of excuses. In retrospect a lot of them were very problematic and had awful views, kind of the edginess you'd see in 4chan (many of them grew up as channers in fact).

I went through a really bad period in my life and gradually started hanging out with them less because I didn't want to be around people as much. I started posting on TVT as a distraction from the shit going on IRL, and gradually a lot of the political consensus of the site rubbed off on me. I guess it was serendipitous in a way, since my siblings are both LGBT+ so gradually we all came to hold similar views more or less independently.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277362: Apr 12th 2019 at 10:55:51 AM

[up][up]Seriously, we've got "progressives" who actually think there's merit to showing up on FOX News for debates. Which is like agreeing to fight your opponents on a battlefield full of landmines (and they know where all the landmines are).

[up]A Cracked article written by an ex-incel I posted in the Mens' Issues thread even pointed out that the key to his leaving the incels was socializing with people other than fellow incels.

Edited by M84 on Apr 13th 2019 at 1:58:13 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#277363: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:01:54 AM

[up]It said a lot to me when the DNC announced not to be holding primary debates on Fox News, since it's taking a stand not just against their opponents, but against the culture too. I maintain that Fox News is more dangerous than any republican politician, if not necessarily more evil.

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277364: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:05:35 AM

I have the view that anyone who likes the establishment is insane.

But the problem is the establishment uses a lot of anti-establishment rhetoric.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277365: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:08:21 AM

[up][up]As I've said several times on these threads, the damage Rupert Murdoch has done cannot be understated. He's poisoned the well of knowledge of our world for generations.

Edited by M84 on Apr 13th 2019 at 2:08:40 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#277366: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:09:23 AM

“The establishment” is multiple entities that don’t necessarily cooperate. I’d argue that therefore, The Man Is Sticking It to the Man is not necessarily hypocritical.

Leviticus 19:34
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#277367: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:09:54 AM

At this point "establishment" and "anti-establishment" are hitting semantic satiation for me, but I still look to people who want the culture of tomorrow to be better than the culture of today or yesterday. Of course, "better" is strictly my personal definition, but I know what matters to me.

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277368: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:10:01 AM

"The establishment" is hardly a monolith, even if it's more convenient to think of it as such.

[up]And the problem of course is that what counts as "better" is different for everyone.

To some, "better" involves wearing a dumbass red MAGA hat.

Edited by M84 on Apr 13th 2019 at 2:10:56 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#277369: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:10:01 AM

I have the view that anyone who likes the establishment is insane.

But the problem is the establishment uses a lot of anti-establishment rhetoric. Random musing of my own: How many of the "anti-establishment" types are actively working to become the establishment?

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 12th 2019 at 12:10:37 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277370: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:11:22 AM

[up]If history is any indication? Damn near all of them. We've got Full-Circle Revolution as a trope for a reason.

Edited by M84 on Apr 13th 2019 at 2:11:43 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#277371: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:13:34 AM

[up][up][up]True. My personal definition actively excludes any state that has already been passed through, though, so "Make America Great Again" or any potential "Again" rhetoric falls flat on me.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Apr 12th 2019 at 2:13:46 PM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#277372: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:15:06 AM

See above, re: f*ck populism.

Beware of revolutionaries who have few ideas on what a revolutionary society should look like or, at least, few that they're willing to share. It's a clear indicator of those whose main point of contention is that they aren't the ones sitting in the dictator chair.

For only a low, low price of $7.99, you too can take a stand against capitalist mercantilism!

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 12th 2019 at 12:16:34 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277373: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:18:11 AM

Even ones with genuinely good intentions (if not necessarily a clear idea of how to actually get them off the ground) are still usually seeking to be the ones in charge to create their vision.

There's a reason Warren and Sanders are running for President instead of throwing support behind another progressive candidate.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#277374: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:21:54 AM

[up] That's not necessarily a fair point, as there are so many candidates running that you could say that about more or less every conceivable point of view in the Democratic party.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#277375: Apr 12th 2019 at 11:22:33 AM

[up][up]Can't say I blame them. If you have a vision, the only one you really know fully agrees with it is yourself. That said, as long as when the democratic candidate is decided upon, those who didn't win shift to supporting the winner, the situation should be reasonable.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Apr 12th 2019 at 2:22:52 PM

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