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wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277176: Apr 10th 2019 at 11:15:40 AM

Sales taxes inherently fuck over poor people. Fuck this bill and the horse it rode in on.

[down] Good. It should be law. Democratic “norms” will fuck you over every time because people acting in bad faith ignore them.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 10th 2019 at 2:22:43 PM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#277177: Apr 10th 2019 at 11:21:20 AM

Elizabeth Warren Posts Her 2018 Taxes: ‘Doing This Should Be Law’ – Ms. Warren’s tax returns showed she earned about $325,000 from her books, in addition to her Senate salary. She has called on all candidates to release their taxes

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-taxes.html

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#277178: Apr 10th 2019 at 11:35:08 AM

Now see I remember that in some places of the world - chiefly the Nordic countries - everyone's tax returns are public access.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#277179: Apr 10th 2019 at 11:47:58 AM

[up][up][up][up] Pedant here, but only the House Speaker is a lawmaker. They're all elected officials, but those in the Executive Branch aren't lawmakers.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277180: Apr 10th 2019 at 11:54:55 AM

Both Roosevelts and Lincoln were populists.

So, basically, I think that's something that makes it a neutral thing.

If the problem of your society is the people then that's something policy cannot fix.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#277181: Apr 10th 2019 at 11:54:56 AM

So, with Barr claiming (with no evidence provided as of yet) that Trump's campaign was spied on, I'm wondering if that will help or hurt Trump. If there were warrants authorizing such monitoring, it might hurt him. I doubt that Obama would be so reckless to unilaterally order monitoring or anything like that.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/10/politics/barr-doj-investiation-fbi-russia/index.html

[up]All three of those Presidents operated in vastly different political environments and cultures. Populism is a very wide and fluid term, even more so over time.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Apr 10th 2019 at 3:56:22 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#277182: Apr 10th 2019 at 12:01:51 PM

Both Roosevelts and Lincoln were populists.

So, basically, I think that's something that makes it a neutral thing.

If the problem of your society is the people then that's something policy cannot fix.

This doesn't really mean anything, every rule has exceptions. Roosevelt and Lincoln being great is perfectly compatible with populists being terrible as a group.

Personally, while I distrust populism I don't find it to be an especially useful term in that it's often very fluid and vague. But I still think this argument is vacuous.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 10th 2019 at 12:02:19 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#277183: Apr 10th 2019 at 12:09:00 PM

Its not a vacuous point if the question is whether populism is inherently negative to bring up positive examples of the fact. It is, in fact, quite pertinent as a counter-example.

I agree with its utter uselessness at description, though. I see it a lot used to describe "candidate I don't like", or "candidate that veers too far Left or Right for my taste".

Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 10th 2019 at 3:09:38 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#277184: Apr 10th 2019 at 12:59:09 PM

Now see I remember that in some places of the world - chiefly the Nordic countries - everyone's tax returns are public access.

We're not likely to see such a thing any time soon. It would mean making people's incomes public access, and that's a no-no in the United States. Corporations don't like it when their employees compare salaries to figure out who's getting ripped off.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#277185: Apr 10th 2019 at 1:03:54 PM

[up] Or, for that matter, find out that the top offices aren't as charitable or (I suspect one indiviual in particular of this motivation) as rich as they claim to be.

My musician page
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277186: Apr 10th 2019 at 1:04:50 PM

Not to mention race and gender discrimination by salary would be MUCH easier to identify/sue over.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#277187: Apr 10th 2019 at 1:42:21 PM

I think the whole Nielsen image thing boils down to those close to her wanting to establish it as either Just Following Orders at best or Punch-Clock Villain at worst - she wasn't doing it because she was malicious, she was doing it because it was her duty!

So, with Barr claiming (with no evidence provided as of yet) that Trump's campaign was spied on, I'm wondering if that will help or hurt Trump. If there were warrants authorizing such monitoring, it might hurt him. I doubt that Obama would be so reckless to unilaterally order monitoring or anything like that.

I'm reminded of the SNL skit "What Even Matters Anymore?", as I suspect that even getting the warrant wouldn't matter a damned bit to the GOP base, who were more than happy to ignore the FISA fuckery back when Bush was the one doing it.

Edited by ironballs16 on Apr 10th 2019 at 5:05:49 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#277188: Apr 10th 2019 at 1:45:46 PM

More like Everyone Has Standards and hers is she won't do shit that'd put her in jail.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277189: Apr 10th 2019 at 2:02:05 PM

My theory is much easier.

She knows that if she does all of Trump's dirty work, he'll toss her out the door to feed the wolves that want a sacrifice.

There's no loyalty in Trump so why bother?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#277190: Apr 10th 2019 at 2:19:27 PM

@Charles-

I'm kind of questioning the idea of Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt (I think FDR is a closer call) qualifying or even self-identifying as populists.

I mean I know that people on the then-contemporary Left (i.e. Marx himself) liked Lincoln, and that Teddy adopted policies favored by populists, but I'd say that Lincoln was representing a pro-business party, but one whose policies included anti-slavery, open-borders/immigration, and providing land to Homesteaders, which IMO basically makes him the 19th century equivalent of a (neo)liberal Democrat. And as I understand it, Teddy Roosevelt's Progressive policies were in part a more conservative/ "respectable" adoption of the policies favored by Socialist agitators, so as to take away steam from those movements (in addition to Roosevelt being genuinely against corruption and in favor of various good polices).

Lincoln does lead to a lot of hairsplitting, because Left and Right don't really comfortably line up with contemporary versions (and at least arguably, the Democrats of the time period had some overlap with contemporary Democrats, especially the avowedly populist kind), but with Teddy, I'm pretty sure Left-wing Populists (i.e. a party that called themselves that) actually existed during his lifetime/Presidency, and he wasn't one of them.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#277191: Apr 10th 2019 at 2:30:14 PM

Teddy Roosevelt was a critic of the official Populist Party, from what I recall. Though they had lost most of their influence by the time he was president.

Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#277192: Apr 10th 2019 at 3:02:03 PM

"Teddy Roosevelt's Progressive policies were in part a more conservative/ "respectable" adoption of the policies favored by Socialist agitators, so as to take away steam from those movements (in addition to Roosevelt being genuinely against corruption and in favor of various good polices)."

FDR did him one better: he took the leaders of the socialist left and gave them jobs in his administration and a chance to implement their ideas.

It was a pretty good Deal, but it gutted the Left as an opposition. And they had to compromise on the racism.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277193: Apr 10th 2019 at 3:04:27 PM

That's a very self-serving view of the "compromise on racism" element. A more honest and less noble fact was that a lot of the Left in America outright betrayed the anti-racism element of their program to encourage America to get involved in the war on behalf of the Soviet Union. They more or less dropped all equality calls to focus instead on the war.

Mind you, the communist party was actively anti-New Deal as a belief that repairing capitalism was something that would inhibit its collapse in their view. Again, dropped for support of the war.

I'm kind of questioning the idea of Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt (I think FDR is a closer call) qualifying or even self-identifying as populists.

Populism isn't a Right or Left viewpoint so much as a tool. It's more akin to polls or lobbying groups than it is to a position. Basically, it's an attempt to circumvent party politics and appeal directly to the people. The Republican Party was created on a populist platform with the view that the existing parties had compromised too much on the issue of slavery.

Slavery which was a huge issue among the public who considered it a great evil (enough to—drum roll—create the Republican party).

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 10th 2019 at 3:07:26 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#277194: Apr 10th 2019 at 3:05:27 PM

That's a very self-serving view of the "compromise on racism" element. A more honest and less noble fact was that a lot of the Left in America outright betrayed the anti-racism element of their program to encourage America to get involved in the war on behalf of the Soviet Union.

Excuse me? Are you suggesting that the US shouldn't have gotten involved in WW 2?

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277195: Apr 10th 2019 at 3:09:04 PM

Really?

[eye roll]

The sad fact is I'm going to have to say no, that's not what I meant.

I'm generally against abandoning equality as a goal. They should have supported intervention against the Nazis and continued to support equality.

They threw blacks under the bus for their Soviet masters and it was a gross betrayal of American civil rights.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 10th 2019 at 3:12:08 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#277196: Apr 10th 2019 at 3:28:55 PM

> They threw blacks under the bus for their Soviet masters and it was a gross betrayal of American civil rights.

Comments like this don't help especially when you refer to them having soviet masters

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#277197: Apr 10th 2019 at 3:35:53 PM

Charles, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here. FDR? American Communists? Something else? Because I don’t see the connection between favoring intervention and abandoning African American rights.

Like you make it sound like you are arguing that the anti-intervention/ pro-Nazi side was more pro-Civil Rights and that people who favored fighting alongside Russia/against Nazis were worse on Civil Rights.

Which I don’t think is what you are arguing or at least I hope not. But that’s what it sounds like. Especially because IIRC you’ve stated that as a pacifist you don’t think the US should have intervened.

Incidentally, your Lincoln argument doesn’t really make sense. Like as I understand it, you are arguing that since Lincoln was representing a majority of people by being anti-slavery, he was a populist. But that’s not actually what the term populist means.

Edited by Hodor2 on Apr 10th 2019 at 5:38:17 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277198: Apr 10th 2019 at 3:41:26 PM

Binary doublethink seems to be the problem here.

I am anti-authoritarian.

Pro-Equality.

Pro-Democracy

So I hate the Nazis.

And I hate Stalin slightly less but still a lot.

And hate the fact the American Communist Party (the Far Left of its time) abandoned racial equality as a goal because the Soviet Union wanted support.

None of which remotely means I'm not anti-Nazi.

Because in what universe does being against one dictator require u to support another?

Mind you, a large part of me assumes you're taking the piss because I can't imagine anyone supporting Stalin or the Nazis on these boards.

But for the short Wikipedia summary of, "How Blacks Left the Communist Party"

The signing of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact damaged the party significantly in the black community. A. Philip Randolph resigned from the Negro National Congress in protest and black newspapers throughout the North condemned the party for its rapid volte face. The CPUSA attacked its opponents as warmongers. When Adolf Hitler's forces invaded the Soviet Union, the party switched to an all-out support for the war effort. It denounced Randolph's proposed March on Washington against employment discrimination in war industries, arguing that it might harm production. But the CPUSA still demanded that defense contractors integrate and took steps to combat "hate strikes" and white-led race riots in Detroit.

Basically, the Communist Party died in the USA because it tilted like a windmill. First supporting the Nazi regime when the Soviets signed their pact and then turning against it when they were enemies again—both times betraying black members.

Much like the American Nazis, the US Communists were foreign actors serving a foreign power and people wised up to it.

I don't use "Soviet masters" lightly but it was unfortunately true.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 10th 2019 at 3:46:03 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#277199: Apr 10th 2019 at 3:48:04 PM

Incidentally, your Lincoln argument doesn’t really make sense. Like as I understand it, you are arguing that since Lincoln was representing a majority of people by being anti-slavery, he was a populist. But that’s not actually what the term populist means.

Populism basically means stating that the "Elites" (whoever they be) are out of touch with the common man and not representing their interests. In the case of Lincoln, a good chunk of the Republican Party's platform was the existing Washington structure was wholly compromised by the attempts to appease Southern interests in the matter of slavery.

Which...in direct opposition to Trump...is 100% true as virtually everyone not interested in compromise then joined the Republican Party.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#277200: Apr 10th 2019 at 3:48:12 PM

But in what way are you arguing that the American Communists abandoned support for equality. Didn’t they support intervention? Are you arguing that supporting fighting on the same side as Russia/ supporting FDR’s bad civil rights policies in favor of opposing Hitler constitutes abandoning civil rights?

If so, you’re really sounding like Pat Buchanan here.

Edit- I see your edit. That makes more sense. Yeah, I agree that there was a lot of support for Stalin over everything else. Still, I think you’re kind of equivocating over whether you think US intervention was bad. It sounds like yes, but you should come out and say it.

As for Lincoln, while I agree that slavers we’re elites, I’m very skeptical at the label of populist because I don’t have an impression that there was any kind of anti-elite framing to the then Republican platform. And conversely, I feel like the most anti-elite framing of the time was among Democrats who didn’t like Northern factory owners or fighting on behalf of African Americans (not the word they would use). Because populists can be and often are the bad guys.

Til;dr you are defining populist as meaning good policies/ looking at the ideal meaning of populism to define Lincoln as a populist, rather than looking at Lincoln’s policies and rhetoric.

Edited by Hodor2 on Apr 10th 2019 at 5:59:05 AM


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