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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#277001: Apr 9th 2019 at 8:37:37 AM

Guys, as much as I sympathize - seriously, f*ck Betsy DeVos - threats of violence or even just wishing violence upon real actual people isn't kosher here.

Exactly. My partner's ex has recently jumped on a bunch of anti-science conspiracy bandwagons, everything from anti-vax to flat Earth to the moon landing being faked. They've been arguing about it constantly since my partner found out (by way of a school notice about the recent measles outbreak informing her that their son's vaccination records weren't up to date), and she's certain that her ex has latched so tightly onto all this bullshit precisely because she never finished high school and can't understand science, so believing science is a scam lets her avoid that shame. If science is fake, then she gets to be the real smart person by denying it, instead of feeling dumb because she doesn't understand it.

That is exactly it.

It's like the outrage that occurred when Pluto was downgraded from being a planet. An overwhelming majority of people weren't pissed off because their own scientific study disagreed with the IAU's astronomical findings. They were pissed off because they learned in second-grade science classes that Pluto is a planet and science isn't supposed to change.

They didn't see it as an evolution of scientific astronomic understanding, but as another attack from the "liberal elites" against the common-sense "Way the World Is". "Pluto is a planet because it just f*cking is and everyone knows it so stop trying to needlessly change things in my life."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#277002: Apr 9th 2019 at 8:39:43 AM

[up]It wasn't just that, it was also the ridiculousness of "dwarf planet" somehow not being a subset of "planet". Which isn't how the English language works.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#277003: Apr 9th 2019 at 8:44:24 AM

[up]x5 Something I've noticed about anti-intellectualism is at the core of it lies a deep, passionate envy who those who are more learned and/or a staggering amount of some kind of self-loathing at their own (perceived) stupidity. Deep down, they'd kill to have the kind of smarts/education/intelligence the "elites" they frequently balk at had, but since they either didn't, can't or don't think they can, they cope with it by either deciding that intellectualism is uncool (and its opposite is cool consequentially), or convince themselves that they're the real smart ones, the ones who know what's really going on in the world. Sometimes both.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Apr 9th 2019 at 11:45:49 AM

i'm tired, my friend
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#277004: Apr 9th 2019 at 8:58:29 AM

[up] There also seems to be the believe that more educated people are looking down on those who do "the real work". Which is mostly nonsense. The pretentious college professor/critique is mostly a movie cliché. Not saying that those people don't exist, but truly educated people are well aware that every kind of work deserves respect. So basically they reflect what they think about themselves on others.

Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#277005: Apr 9th 2019 at 8:58:35 AM

Anti-Intellectualism is also rooting in pretentiousness and a superiority complex, this is something I see with my father.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#277006: Apr 9th 2019 at 8:59:35 AM

And in the present especially, if not the past, it’s become a vicious cycle. The people who support anti-intellectualism put one of the worst anti-intellectuals in arguably the single most powerful office in the world, validating him, and he in turn, just by being in that office validates him. I think in this case getting the head anti-intellectual out of office will create a break in the cycle, if not undoing the damage the trend has cause, at least mitigating the amount of new anti-intellectuals, but there’s still a massive cultural reparation to make.

Edit: [up][up] Ironically, some think the educated think they’re better than everyone else because post-secondary education is expensive. Then they vote in politicians who keep colleges expensive instead of ones who for example support free community colleges. Another vicious cycle.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Apr 9th 2019 at 12:13:25 PM

My musician page
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#277007: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:14:27 AM

In the case of Flat Earth in particular, I remember The Last Podcast on the Left positing that part of it is a kind of I Just Want to Be Special, and the idea that we're merely a microscopic speck upon a microscopic speck is an idea too frightening to contemplate, so the idea we're on some God-created flat Earth is simply more reassuring.

On the topic of family politics, my brother's family is very Right thinking. Probably more Libertarian than flat out right, but my brother knows I don't mean that way and we generally just don't talk politics. Speaking for myself, it simply is not a battle I'm prepared to engage in.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277008: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:42:18 AM

[up]I've long since accepted that I'm just one ephemeral speck of carbon in the universe that will cease in due time. It's actually kind of refreshing to accept it.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#277009: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:42:28 AM

More or less everyone in my immediate social circle and family thinks that Trump is equal parts evil and incompetent. But Trump (and shit up here, like the rise of Doug Ford) might be driving my dad to increasingly left-leaning positions, at least socially, when he's been more or less moderate his whole life.

I remember one libertarian(ish) classmate talking about how while Trump getting elected was overall a bad thing, it might be good for Canada because he'd lower business and trade restrictions. IIRC, he shut up real quick once Trump started up his tariff tantrum.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#277010: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:42:57 AM

Tobias, I am feeling a lot of admiration for you right now. Keep up the good fight.

As an aside, how did you use the prisoner's dilemma game to illustrate discrimination? There are a lot of ways that could go.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#277011: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:47:35 AM

It appears that William Barr is throwing his support for the ACA being overturned.

Between this and how he handled the Mueller report, I am not liking this guy.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#277012: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:52:59 AM

I haven't yet. What I have done is I used it to break a crack in the armor of my mom's economic conservatism. She has a Libertarian's rose-colored view of economic philosophy, believing in the idea that the rich are rich because they did hard, honest work and thus deserve to be rich. And that people on a corporate ladder are fundamentally good people who help the less fortunate by employing them.

She is, herself, a middle-manager. In the past, I've overheard her on the phone with some of her peers complaining about employees who had left. She was upset about these employees because she'd cultivated them, mentored them, spent years training them, and then they dumped her for a higher paycheck. She was super mad at them for not being loyal to her and the company above the lure of better pay.

I used that as my 'in'. After explaining the Prisoner's Dilemma to her, I then walked her through how each of those interactions with employees was a case of the Prisoner's Dilemma. In every one of those cases, they chose to betray. Because in the Prisoner's Dilemma, betraying is the optimal choice. No matter what the other person does, you are personally better off if you betray in every scenario.

In a capitalist system, loyalty has no value. The only currency in unregulated capitalism is currency, and that's not a reality that she and many other economic conservatives never noticed.

Once I gave the thought-experiment a real-world application to her life, she was stunned. She realized of her own volition that she encounters the Prisoner's Dilemma all the time, not just in her work but in her personal life as well. She seemed really receptive to the concept.

The next step is to show her how it applies to the people at the top of the enterprise as well, not just the ones at the bottom.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 9th 2019 at 10:54:54 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#277013: Apr 9th 2019 at 9:59:01 AM

This more relating to Brexit but here is a very interesting article about under which circumstances people actually change their mind:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/09/change-mind-brexit-peter-oborne-beliefs

I especially love the argument that you should tell a conservative that "taxing 1% more from the rich will protect families" is a better argument then "it will help the poor". Maybe we should argue for universal healthcare by claiming that it would help and protect the veterans better.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#277014: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:05:55 AM

That implies that conservatives give a damn about veterans when they are not using them as campaign props.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277015: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:06:21 AM

Whoever posted a page or two ago saying our checks and balances are working, I’m sorry to say that you are very, very wrong.

Quoting for those who can’t use twitter:

Fascist white supremacist Miller is dictating policy while Trump advises fed employees to disregard Judges orders. We are an Authoritarian state and no one is stopping them.

3 precious months have gone by w 1 hearing, no Mueller report, and all criminals free and emboldened.

Trumps regime is not following the law and have zero qualms about publicly stating that they won’t. Everyone was waiting for Mueller to act but what’s the excuse now. We can’t even get a damn report because like Trump like the Authoritarian he is filled his agencies w loyalists

Congress is failing to stop this, intel failed because Russia installed Trump and they have done nothing since. Law enforcement failed because criminals like Kushner, Ivanka, Bolton, continue to have access to our secrets. Too many people are still unaware of what is happening

Also can people stop saying constitutional crisis. We were there in 2017

Dems better wake up to the fact that none of this is normal and they can’t use old tactics to fight these criminals who will not let go of power without a fight. Soon the excuse will be that we can’t do anything not to interfere w election. It’s really frustrating repeating this

Not to mention media who has been normalizing our fall from Democracy as if it’s some reality show.

For those unaware of context re: Trump telling border patrol to ignore judges, this should be a massive story but isn’t getting enough focus:

Last Friday, the President visited Calexico, California, where he said, "We're full, our system's full, our country's full — can't come in! Our country is full, what can you do? We can't handle any more, our country is full. Can't come in, I'm sorry. It's very simple." Behind the scenes, two sources told CNN, the President told border agents to not let migrants in. Tell them we don't have the capacity, he said. If judges give you trouble, say, "Sorry, judge, I can't do it. We don't have the room."

After the President left the room, agents sought further advice from their leaders, who told them they were not giving them that direction and if they did what the President said they would take on personal liability. You have to follow the law, they were told.

So, for those who don’t understand the significance here: the president personally ordered border agents to IGNORE THE LAW and IGNORE JUDGES. This is an obscene and blatant disregard for the rule of law; it is not a minor error or gaffe. It is blatant authoritarianism. He also called for getting rid of judges last week.

singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#277016: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:11:06 AM

[up][up][up] Nice in theory, but given the Department for Veteran Affairs is actually one of the closest things to a national healthcare program, and it is notorious in how badly run it is (not helped of course by the political interference from the top) linking healthcare to veterans might cause people to assume that universal healthcare means that everyone gets a VA like service.

Edited by singularityshot on Apr 9th 2019 at 6:11:30 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#277017: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:13:37 AM

Eh, conservatives don't really care about families either if they don't argue for anti-abortion laws or against gay marriage, but what they do and what they think they do are always two pair of shoes. emotionally they think that they care a lot about veterans. That's exactly the reason why republican politicians keep wheeling them out. (Remember, we are talking about the voters here, not the politicians).

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#277018: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:29:47 AM

Wasn't there a article a few pages past of Conservatives thinking Vets were 'weak' for using VA resources?

I think you are once more focusing on an unrealistic but 'neat' solution.

"You can reply to this Message!"
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#277019: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:30:39 AM

Whoever posted a page or two ago saying our checks and balances are working, I’m sorry to say that you are very, very wrong.
Yeah, "checks and balances" only works if both parties agree to some semblance of "this is an overreach, Mr. President." But as it stands, when confronted with Trump's pushes to see how much he can get away with, too many in the GOP are either A) willing to look the other way as long as they get their pet causes passed, or B) Butt-kissers who sincerely believe the president can do no wrong and is never to be questioned or you're a traitor to this country.

EDIT: Also, Trump's wrong. The country is not full. I'm pretty sure large chunks of the west are sparsely populated.

Edited by speedyboris on Apr 9th 2019 at 12:33:02 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#277020: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:36:45 AM

When Trump says the country is full he means there's too many people he doesn't like,typical old person ranting really

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#277021: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:39:55 AM

You could build a whole new city in Idaho and I'm pretty sure nobody would notice. That's how not full we are.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#277022: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:42:49 AM

Nevada and Texas aren't exactly crowded either.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ciyinwanderer Since: Dec, 2018
#277023: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:47:58 AM

Yeah, most everything Wise Willow mentioned is on my mind.

Plus, you know, the kids in cages. Even if we nominally stopped the family separations from happening, as a country we have already emotionally scarred hundreds (thousands?) of children for life. This should be on the front page of every news publication every day; the fact most people seem to have moved on is a damning statement on how much we really care.

This signature was thumped to preserve the dignity of the moderators.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#277024: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:48:12 AM

[up][up][up][up], [up][up][up], and [up][up]

It’s called white supremacy guys

[up] They’re still happening.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 9th 2019 at 1:49:27 PM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#277025: Apr 9th 2019 at 10:49:23 AM

In Minnesota we have one big-ass metro where the majority of the population lives and then the rest are scattered in much smaller towns and cities across the state. Pretty sure we've got room.


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