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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
The thing is, when Trump does something like banning Trans people from the military, or we discuss the discrimination in boardrooms, the structural problems do not change that it is a symbol of intent. Even if you, say, dislike the USA military (like me), you can still be upset at the show of hatred that is banning Trans people from it. Even if you oppose large corporations, you can still notice the underlying sexism and discrimination in who is in charge as bad.
The "more diverse oppressors" meme needs to die. You can still oppose the system and recognize that less diversity in it is a sign of a worse off underlying culture.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 8th 2019 at 1:16:18 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerTo add, and other people can explain it better than me: banning trans people from the military is more than a symbol of intent. It is an active attempt to restrict the rights and privileges of trans people.
It is a refusal to recognize their gender as legitimate, and to make them seem less American. It opens the door to even worse forms of discrimination.
That and worse. See, it doesn't let Trans women, Trans men, nor non-binary people in. In short, it refuses not only to see us as the gender we are, it refuses to even acknowledge gender in any way, and refuses to see us as citizens on the same level as cis people.
Its a symbol of intent. We hate you, we want to take away your rights. An opening salvo.
Which is why my blood begins to boil when I see people say things like, "well the army's bad anyway." NOT. THE. POINT. Its not just about the army.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 8th 2019 at 1:48:52 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerFor more context: Remember that Antifa originated in Europe and has therefore a long history. In Germany it is not unusual for Antifa and other left-leaning group having demos which are basically about destruction. And I am not saying that they turn up where Nazis are and then punch them, I am saying that they turn up and destroy cars, throw stones at the police (from the roof of houses, so this is not as harmless as it might sound out of context), destroy shops. And those people do a LOT of damage to the cause of Antifa.
It is also important to know that Antifa doesn't exist since yesterday. Antifa already was a thing during the Weimar Republic, and guess what, they lost.
The problem with Antifa has always been that it isn't one organisation which follows the same goals, but a giant umbrella term and while most groups under this umbrella do a lot of good, the ones which are mostly interested in violence and destruction give the whole movement a really, really bad name. It has the usual problems every movement which is "anti" and not necessarily "pro" has, though, to the credit of Antifa, the various groups do tend to formulate their pro goals. But there are a few which are anti-power by the state which (naturally) can be a huge problem.
Which is why one shouldn't take a "Antifa is harmless, look at the far right" stance. Instead one should take a "Antifa means well, though we need to keep an eye on them, but they are not our main problem, let's focus on the far right" stance.
Fair enough?
All this said, Antifa has more of a reason to exist and be occasionally violent in the US than in most states. Like I said, the lack of proper policing doing demonstrations is a problem, at least in some areas for the US. If one has ever taken a look in the planning for Charlottesville, it was a catastrophe waiting to happen, because of the actions of the so called Alt-right and the poor planning by the police.
So, per news linked on previous pages, Trump's getting rid of his Homeland Security director for not being unlawfully cruel and also filed requests for retaliation against people who contributed to the Mueller Investigation.
Eeyup. This is precisely what I expected. Trump is convinced that he's totally clear of the Mueller Investigation and has taken a confidence-boosting shot in the arm from it. He spent last week taking his victory lap and now he's kicking the Horrible Shit Trump Did Today quota into overdrive.
In Trump's mind, he has finally been crowned Undisputed King of America. I fully expect we're about to see some shit that makes the last two years look tame by comparison. Trump finally feels like he has an absolute mandate to rule without the Sword of Damocles that's been hanging over his head.
Shit attempted, mind you, because the Democratic party now has the power to actually do something now. Still not much given Republican dominance over the Executive and Judicial as well as control of the Senate, but it's something.
Meanwhile, with regards to the topic of violence against Nazis and people urging caution about optics, I'm just going to leave this quote from Dr. King here. It remains applicable to this day.
Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
The message is that Nazis are bad and that genocidal ambitions should not be tolerated. Anyone bothered by the tone of that argument, anyone who needs convincing, anyone who really wants to debate the pros and cons of white supremacy, that is a person who already isn't of a mind to listen no matter how thoughtfully you present your argument.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.![]()
Considering how the police act in the United States, having them police all the rallies would be a bad idea. They are not some neutral arbiter of justice. Remember that article I posted a while back about them siding with the White Nationalists?
Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 8th 2019 at 2:00:26 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer![]()
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I am not sure if it counts as an "argument" if you randomly smash cars and destroy the livelihood of working people. That's the issue here. And acknowledging this doesn't stop you in ANY WAY to point out how much more dangerous the alt-right is. Which Trevor Noah frequently does.
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I know, which is why I keep saying that the US is one of those countries where Antifa has more reason to go violent (in the fitting situation) than in some other places and situations.
Edited by Swanpride on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:01:24 AM
Sometimes smashing cars is the only way to get people to pay attention.
A lot of middle-class people live in a comfortable haze of, "Oh, look, SOMEBODY is protesting SOMETHING again. It must be Tuesday. Doesn't affect my life, though!"
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I would be more worried about his pick for the federal reserve. John Oliver is right, if the world loses the trust in the dollar, the US will be in a world of hurt.
Usually middle class people stop to listen when their property is destroyed. And during the demonstration in Hamburg, the community which got hit the hardest was for one relatively poor and two, well known for all the leftists living there. So, tell, what exactly is the win when the Autonomen destroy the property of the people who are already on their side and who can't necessarily afford to replace it? And what is exactly the win in trying to kill police officers?
Edited by Swanpride on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:04:40 AM
That's also a sign of what I call "Magic Bullet Thinking". You can have a society that's egalitarian or 'free' in the anthropological sense, but totally bigoted. Remove the police from a racist society, and you're stuck with the ultimate form of The People's Justice: Lynch Mobs.
Sometimes, the problem isn't the fruit, nor the tree, but the soil.
Leviticus 19:34Definitely there is a vocal minority out there painting a poor picture of other anti-fascists, but I personally believe that part of the blame falls to mainstream media outlets for reporting on anti-fascist violence more often and in more aggressive language than when they report on fascist violence. It's pretty damn problematic when pundits equivocate actual violence done by Nazis and property damage by anti-Fascists. There's a great video about this by Some More News when they were still affiliated with Cracked.
Sometimes, the problem isn't the fruit, nor the tree, but the soil.
You still have to do something about the poisoned fruit and tree, though.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.![]()
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I actually do agree with that. But that's not a reason to be trustful of the police. At their worst, they can just be an organized group of bigots instead of an unorganized one.
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Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 8th 2019 at 2:06:09 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerI said this a few weeks ago, but the average person (especially if they're white) is going to have something of a conservative bias because they are used to the status quo. You can see it by how people seem to take antifa/"the far left" a lot more seriously as a dangerous influence on society compared to the GOP, white supremacists, and so on. Even people who are just making serious critiques of the status quo and not necessarily saying violence is the solution seem to get under their skin a lot more than white supremacists, where their response is basically "Yeah of course they're awful people, but free speech ya know?".
The news outlets are just a reflection of this, really.
Tobias the group Swan is talking about aren’t so much Antifa as they are people who call themselves Antifa as cover. In the UK they get called the Black Block (as they dress in all black with their faces covered), they basically turn up to protests (any protest, not just ones were Nazis are there) and smash stuff while picking a fight with the police. I remember them doing it at the second student fees protests, they turned up with large shields and charged the police around parliament square, there were no Nazis or anything else there, just protesters and the police, the Black Block then started a fight with the police that got all of up detailed for hours.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranAbsolutely, I suspect a major reason for this is that much of the Media's higher-ups and owners are affluent white people and as such have very little reason to treat fascists seriously because they don't have to worry about being targeted. So for them, fascists are just harmless crazies or worse people who have good points but aren't civil enough.
Hence the deluge of false equivalencies and fear mongering.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:12:12 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThere seem to be two different brands of "bothsiderism", both of which are super annoying and nonconstructive. The types are "centrist bothsiderism" and "extremist bothsiderism".
Centrist bothsiderism is: both sides are equally bad, which is why I regard myself as apolitical and I stay in the center of politics. I don't vote because it's a waste of time because both sides are basically the same anyway.
Extremist bothsiderism is: both sides are equally bad because the side that's supposedly on my side isn't nearly as extreme as I am. I don't vote because the side who claims to be with me doesn't fit all my criteria for being a perfect politician.
I think it's important to acknowledge this because the ways of dealing with each type are different. The former is a person not caring about politics at all, like it doesn't affect them in any way, while the latter is a person caring way too much about politics, to the point they become a nitpicky, perfectionist Single-Issue Wonk, and they shift on what that issue is on a dime.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:16:19 AM
In Trump's mind, he has finally been crowned Undisputed King of America. I fully expect we're about to see some shit that makes the last two years look tame by comparison. Trump finally feels like he has an absolute mandate to rule without the Sword of Damocles that's been hanging over his head.
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Exactly.
I do wish to note, however, that there is more nuance than, "the people supposedly on your side". Because sometimes they aren't. Sometimes the Democrats very much do aid and abet injustice.
I remember Roy Cooper as the most prominent example of this for me in recent times. Elected to the Governorship in 2016 despite North Carolina swinging red due to the unpopularity of the previous Governor. Cooper was elected on the promise that he would repeal HB 02, the "bathroom bill" that made North Carolina a pariah in the USA. He ran on an explicit "LGBTQ discrimination must be repealed."
And then?
When push came to shove, when the Republicans in the state legislature obstructed and Sports agencies threatened to leave, instead of continuing his stand and letting Republicans take the fall, he capitulated and accepted the Republican's "compromise", to ban anti-discrimination laws just to repeal the bathroom bill. So discrimination remained legal, all so the state could secure some lucrative sports tournament.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 8th 2019 at 2:23:24 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerThe military is often the only option for people with low privilege to even have a chance to improve their lot in life. I can hardly fault them for taking that Faustian Bargain. Likewise for all other "oppressor" roles: I believe people are entitled to the pursuit of happiness under the kyriarchy, to reach for the upper rung of the pyramid. Anyone trying to bar their passage is committing a clear and intolerable injustice.
What I take issue with, is when this is treated as the only thing to do, the only problem to solve, that we need not look further out into the broader problem.
Regarding trans people, I'd rather put effort in helping those that are homeless, unemployed, disowned, victims of police brutality, rape, bullying, suicide, etc. This would of course include veterans and enlisted personnel. Them not getting to enter the grindhouse that is the military in the first place... I mean, fuck Trump and fuck anyone who disrespects you or tries to erase you, and I'll be your ally as long as there's injustice upon you, but I sincerely ask you, is this really what you want to focus on?
Edited by Oruka on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:29:06 AM

What I mean when I say "centrist" is someone who is mostly satisfied with the status quo and only dares to do small tweaks and fixes rather than attempting anything resembling an overhaul of the power structure and its fundamental systemic incentives. You know, what "conservatives " pretend to be.
Centrists can become problematic when leaving unquestioned or unchallenged several horrible things Inherent in the System. Or when they suffer from bothsideism and need to punch left whenever they've just punched right. Trevor Noah didn't equate Antifa with Nazis, but, IIRC, Jake Tapper did.
Noah is a liberal, but sometimes I feel like him, but his correspondents (or the characters they play) even more so, operate on a conservative mindframe, that if "our" people are put in power, everything will be all right. They want the pyramid to be more demographically diverse, rather than it be flattened. "More women CEO's, more trans people in the army, more affirmative action scholarships in colleges", instead of "break up the trusts, restructure the military industrial complex so that it stops being a machine of exploitation, abuse, and harm, fund public colleges, and make the tuition free, and make them open to everyone".
I know this much. Just because a person from a minority achieved power despite prejudice, doesn't mean that they will do better than others. Especially not if the systemic incentive systems make good behaviour self-eliminatory.
We don't need more diverse billionaires. It doesn't hurt, but it's a band aid. We need fewer billionaires.