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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Not saying I agree with Trevor Noah on this. I don't.
Is Nazi punching the best way to deal with Nazis? Probably not. Does it hurt the goal of discouraging Nazis from showing up? Not really.
It's not like they wouldn't find a way to play the victim card anyway.
Edited by M84 on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:03:55 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedI wouldn't dream of speaking for M84 but I don't think that's their point, experiencing violence can undoubtedly be a traumatic thing and that trauma could make them more hesitant to accept it in-general.
That doesn't mean that all violence is equal, of course, it isn't. Just that one's experience will mold what tactics one considers desirable or not.
This too, if Noah didn't mention it (which I don't believe he did) then it would be best if we focus on his actual arguments.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 8th 2019 at 8:04:16 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangI think what Noah and other people take issue with is pro-active violence, i.e. violence that isn't done in defense.
If you punch a guy for talking, you're automatically looking like the bad guy, even if his "talk" was about how minorities don't deserve to live or how the Jews are evil.
Should these people allowed to spread their toxic bullshit? No. But violence should be a last resort, not the first thing you go for.
And that is something Antifa and similar groups have been criticised for a lot over here in Germany - the willingness to show up and initiate the violence.
That doesn't make them the same as the fascists, mind, and claiming that being critical of their habit to jump directly to violence is bothsiding the issue is disingenuous, in my opinion.
We learn from history that we do not learn from history“All Jews should go back to Israel”
“Immigrants are invading us”
Yeah, those both deserve a punch in the face. I am serious. White supremacy depends upon calls for violence, and those aren’t even dogwhistles.
See: the pyramid of white supremacy.
Edited by wisewillow on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:13:19 AM
And when they use violence directed at them as evidence that the counter-movements are inherently violent, gaining public sympathy (and recruits) thereby?
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"The alternative, of letting them spread hate unabetted, is far worse. Especially since, as we saw at Charlettesville and with the Proud Boys, they have no qualms about using violence of their own.
If they aren't challenged, they can run amok and do whatever they want to attack minority voices.
And if you think the Nazis will go away because of words alone, then you're mistaken.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:18:10 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerAnyone more familiar with the actions of antifa movements outside of the USA would be a bit more wary of supporting a group that calls itself antifa. Despite the fact that the USA antifa is for the most part not that violent in comparison.
In Sweden for example there's the Revolutionary Front.
Edited by M84 on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:20:27 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedTrump's head of homeland security Kirstjen Nielsen resigns
Her departure marks the end of a tortured relationship with Donald Trump, who reportedly blamed her for a recent surge in the number of migrants crossing the southern border and felt she wasn't tough enough to implement his crackdown.
During her 18 months at the head of the powerful agency, Nielsen became synonymous with the controversial policy of separating children from their parents, making her a frequent target of progressive groups and the Democratic opposition who repeatedly called on her to resign.
None of this, however, seems to have been enough for Trump, whose ever hardening push against illegal immigration has left no room for the 46-year-old, an old hand of the administration who signed on at the start of the real-estate tycoon's presidency.
"Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen will be leaving her position, and I would like to thank her for her service," Trump tweeted Sunday.
He added US Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Kevin Mc Aleenan would become acting secretary.
"Despite our progress in reforming homeland security for a new age, I have determined that it is the right time for me to step aside," Nielsen said in a resignation letter she later shared on Twitter.
Nielsen's resignation comes days after she and Trump visited the Mexican border in California together, where the president delivered a message to would-be illegal immigrants and asylum seekers: "Our country is full."
He had previously threatened to close the US-Mexico border if Congress and Central American governments did not act to stem a flow of migrants that saw Nielsen last week order an "emergency surge" of personnel to handle the situation.
Trump wants tougher
On Friday, US media reported that Trump also pulled his nominee to lead Immigration and Customs Enforcement department — saying he wanted someone "tougher" to lead the department — a sub-agency of Nielsen's.
The personnel shake-ups were seen by observers as a signal the president wants to take an even harder line.
"When even the most radical voices in the administration aren't radical enough for President Trump, you know he's completely lost touch with the American people," Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said Sunday.
Nielsen initially joined the Trump administration in January 2017 as a an assistant to Trump's first DHS secretary, John Kelly. When Kelly moved to the White House as Trump's chief of staff in July 2017, Nielsen went with him as his deputy.
But by October she was back at DHS, this time as secretary. Disaster relief, cyber security, transportation security, the Coast Guard, customs and policing the borders all fall under the department's purview.
Family separations
Most notably, however, she has become the face of the Trump administration's fierce anti-immigration policy.
That included the widely condemned practice of separating migrant children from their parents as part of a "zero tolerance" policy of prosecuting all illegal border crossers.
Images of sobbing children being taken from their parents last year fuelled a national outcry that saw Democrats demand she resign, as condemnation poured in from the United Nations, human rights groups, and four former first ladies — all mothers — who called the policy "cruel" and "immoral."
Nielsen's relationship with the president had long been said to be difficult. But despite reports he complained constantly about her performance — and that he believed she was not harsh enough — she remained steadfastly loyal.
Last month, she defended the president's declaration of a national emergency to secure funding for his pet project: a wall on the US-Mexico border.
And when participants in a January 2018 White House session on immigration quoted Trump as referring to African nations as "shithole" countries, Nielsen came to the president's defense.
"I did not hear that word used," she told a congressional hearing.
Nielsen is just the latest of dozens of White House aides — from attorney general Jeff Sessions to press secretary Sean Spicer — to either resign or be sacked from a position in the Trump administration. (AFP)
A France24 overview of Nielsen's departure.
Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our livesOnes perspective on violence against Nazis is going to come down to how one views Nazis, if one views them as misguided fellow citizens than violence should be only used in an immediate defensive situation, while if one views them as opposing soldiers in a war for our survival than the violence was started long ago.
It comes down to how close you see the marching Nazis of today to the marching Nazi of 1944. Once upon a time we shot nazis on sight.
There’s a very authoritarian part of me that understands the instinct, just re-declare war on both Nazi Germany and the Confederate States, then charge anyone flying either flag with treason for swearing alligence to a war enemy.
It’s certainly not a good idea, but I understand the instinct, part of it comes from a desire to simplify thing.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

People who pearl-clutch about violence as a moral issue not just ignore that but also choose to ignore the fact that civilization is fundamentally built on violence and as such, the idea that violence is something with no place in polite society is just a convenient fiction. One that must be repudiated if we as a society are ever going to have a discussion about whether violence against fascists is justified.
Edited by wisewillow on Apr 8th 2019 at 10:58:51 AM