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wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#276851: Apr 8th 2019 at 7:58:11 AM

On the topic of violence, I think getting the alt-right afraid to come out in public is a clear benefit on its own, after all, Fascism is fundamentally built on violence against entire categories of people and as such violence against them is merely self-defense.

People who pearl-clutch about violence as a moral issue not just ignore that but also choose to ignore the fact that civilization is fundamentally built on violence and as such, the idea that violence is something with no place in polite society is just a convenient fiction. One that must be repudiated if we as a society are ever going to have a discussion about whether violence against fascists is justified.

[up]Yup.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 8th 2019 at 10:58:51 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#276852: Apr 8th 2019 at 7:59:02 AM

Trevor Noah's own personal experiences with violence — his stepfather shot his mother and nearly killed her and also threatened to kill him — may have influenced his thoughts on the use of violence to achieve goals.

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#276853: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:00:27 AM

... are you kidding me with that comparison. Domestic abuse and punching Nazis is a hell of a false equivalency.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#276854: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:01:36 AM

Not saying I agree with Trevor Noah on this. I don't.

Is Nazi punching the best way to deal with Nazis? Probably not. Does it hurt the goal of discouraging Nazis from showing up? Not really.

It's not like they wouldn't find a way to play the victim card anyway.

Edited by M84 on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:03:55 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#276855: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:03:37 AM

Let's not backseat analyze these things either.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#276856: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:03:41 AM

... are you kidding me with that comparison. Domestic abuse and punching Nazis is a hell of a false equivalency.

I wouldn't dream of speaking for M84 but I don't think that's their point, experiencing violence can undoubtedly be a traumatic thing and that trauma could make them more hesitant to accept it in-general.

That doesn't mean that all violence is equal, of course, it isn't. Just that one's experience will mold what tactics one considers desirable or not.

Let's not backseat analyze these things either.

This too, if Noah didn't mention it (which I don't believe he did) then it would be best if we focus on his actual arguments.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Apr 8th 2019 at 8:04:16 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#276857: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:04:27 AM

[up][up]It is admittedly veering too far into armchair psychiatry.

Disgusted, but not surprised
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#276858: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:07:12 AM

I think what Noah and other people take issue with is pro-active violence, i.e. violence that isn't done in defense.

If you punch a guy for talking, you're automatically looking like the bad guy, even if his "talk" was about how minorities don't deserve to live or how the Jews are evil.

Should these people allowed to spread their toxic bullshit? No. But violence should be a last resort, not the first thing you go for.

And that is something Antifa and similar groups have been criticised for a lot over here in Germany - the willingness to show up and initiate the violence.

That doesn't make them the same as the fascists, mind, and claiming that being critical of their habit to jump directly to violence is bothsiding the issue is disingenuous, in my opinion.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#276859: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:09:19 AM

[up] If their words are an incitement to violence, I'd call punching them in the face to be defensive in nature.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#276860: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:10:48 AM

“All Jews should go back to Israel”

“Immigrants are invading us”

Yeah, those both deserve a punch in the face. I am serious. White supremacy depends upon calls for violence, and those aren’t even dogwhistles.

See: the pyramid of white supremacy.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:13:19 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#276861: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:11:54 AM

And when they use violence directed at them as evidence that the counter-movements are inherently violent, gaining public sympathy (and recruits) thereby?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#276862: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:14:01 AM

[up] Yeah, I'd rather not give the fascists exactly what they want for the sake of short-term cartharsis.

Fascists need to be prosecuted and de-platformed. The issue is that the US' definition of "free speech" is way too broad.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#276863: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:14:30 AM

[up][up]If it didn’t happen, they’d fake it. Because they are acting in bad faith. See: massive whining about “free speech” for racist pseudoscience and homophobia/transphobia, and utter silence when protesters are arrested for opposing ICE.

Edited by wisewillow on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:14:43 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#276864: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:15:37 AM

It may be worth noting that American antifa action doesn't quite have the same baggage as European antifa. European antifa has been a lot more violent. They don't always just stop with a mere punch.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#276865: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:16:18 AM

The alternative, of letting them spread hate unabetted, is far worse. Especially since, as we saw at Charlettesville and with the Proud Boys, they have no qualms about using violence of their own.

If they aren't challenged, they can run amok and do whatever they want to attack minority voices.

And if you think the Nazis will go away because of words alone, then you're mistaken.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:18:10 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#276867: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:18:06 AM

Anyone more familiar with the actions of antifa movements outside of the USA would be a bit more wary of supporting a group that calls itself antifa. Despite the fact that the USA antifa is for the most part not that violent in comparison.

In Sweden for example there's the Revolutionary Front.

Edited by M84 on Apr 8th 2019 at 11:20:27 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#276868: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:57:28 AM

MSNBC sources: Trump got rid of Nielson because he wants large scale family separations back and she residted due to legal reasons.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#276869: Apr 8th 2019 at 8:58:35 AM

[up]Oh dear...

At least her Acting replacement doesn't appear to be much of an ideologue, but his replacement probably will be.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#276870: Apr 8th 2019 at 9:01:36 AM

And he made such a big deal of signing an executive order to stop the separations too. This is reminding me of how pissed off he was that he had to condemn Nazis after calling them "fine people" during Charlottesville.

Edited by Parable on Apr 8th 2019 at 9:02:10 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#276871: Apr 8th 2019 at 9:05:00 AM

Trump is genuinely evil.

It's rare I use that word.

But it's here.

I'm reminded of that scene from 9-5 where Dolly Parton calls out her boss for that, unaware she'd ever meet someone that disgusting.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#276872: Apr 8th 2019 at 9:08:35 AM

Boy, when you're going too far for Nielsen...

Probably Stephen FUCKING Miller.

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#276874: Apr 8th 2019 at 9:50:26 AM

Trump's head of homeland security Kirstjen Nielsen resigns

     Nielsen Resigns 
US Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, the front-line defender of the administration's controversial immigration policies, resigned on Sunday, in a move linked by observers to the president's anger over Central American border crossers.

Her departure marks the end of a tortured relationship with Donald Trump, who reportedly blamed her for a recent surge in the number of migrants crossing the southern border and felt she wasn't tough enough to implement his crackdown.

During her 18 months at the head of the powerful agency, Nielsen became synonymous with the controversial policy of separating children from their parents, making her a frequent target of progressive groups and the Democratic opposition who repeatedly called on her to resign.

None of this, however, seems to have been enough for Trump, whose ever hardening push against illegal immigration has left no room for the 46-year-old, an old hand of the administration who signed on at the start of the real-estate tycoon's presidency.

"Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen will be leaving her position, and I would like to thank her for her service," Trump tweeted Sunday.

He added US Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Kevin Mc Aleenan would become acting secretary.

"Despite our progress in reforming homeland security for a new age, I have determined that it is the right time for me to step aside," Nielsen said in a resignation letter she later shared on Twitter.

Nielsen's resignation comes days after she and Trump visited the Mexican border in California together, where the president delivered a message to would-be illegal immigrants and asylum seekers: "Our country is full."

He had previously threatened to close the US-Mexico border if Congress and Central American governments did not act to stem a flow of migrants that saw Nielsen last week order an "emergency surge" of personnel to handle the situation.

Trump wants tougher

On Friday, US media reported that Trump also pulled his nominee to lead Immigration and Customs Enforcement department — saying he wanted someone "tougher" to lead the department — a sub-agency of Nielsen's.

The personnel shake-ups were seen by observers as a signal the president wants to take an even harder line.

"When even the most radical voices in the administration aren't radical enough for President Trump, you know he's completely lost touch with the American people," Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said Sunday.

Nielsen initially joined the Trump administration in January 2017 as a an assistant to Trump's first DHS secretary, John Kelly. When Kelly moved to the White House as Trump's chief of staff in July 2017, Nielsen went with him as his deputy.

But by October she was back at DHS, this time as secretary. Disaster relief, cyber security, transportation security, the Coast Guard, customs and policing the borders all fall under the department's purview.

Family separations

Most notably, however, she has become the face of the Trump administration's fierce anti-immigration policy.

That included the widely condemned practice of separating migrant children from their parents as part of a "zero tolerance" policy of prosecuting all illegal border crossers.

Images of sobbing children being taken from their parents last year fuelled a national outcry that saw Democrats demand she resign, as condemnation poured in from the United Nations, human rights groups, and four former first ladies — all mothers — who called the policy "cruel" and "immoral."

Nielsen's relationship with the president had long been said to be difficult. But despite reports he complained constantly about her performance — and that he believed she was not harsh enough — she remained steadfastly loyal.

Last month, she defended the president's declaration of a national emergency to secure funding for his pet project: a wall on the US-Mexico border.

And when participants in a January 2018 White House session on immigration quoted Trump as referring to African nations as "shithole" countries, Nielsen came to the president's defense.

"I did not hear that word used," she told a congressional hearing.

Nielsen is just the latest of dozens of White House aides — from attorney general Jeff Sessions to press secretary Sean Spicer — to either resign or be sacked from a position in the Trump administration. (AFP)

A France24 overview of Nielsen's departure.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#276875: Apr 8th 2019 at 9:52:41 AM

Ones perspective on violence against Nazis is going to come down to how one views Nazis, if one views them as misguided fellow citizens than violence should be only used in an immediate defensive situation, while if one views them as opposing soldiers in a war for our survival than the violence was started long ago.

It comes down to how close you see the marching Nazis of today to the marching Nazi of 1944. Once upon a time we shot nazis on sight.

There’s a very authoritarian part of me that understands the instinct, just re-declare war on both Nazi Germany and the Confederate States, then charge anyone flying either flag with treason for swearing alligence to a war enemy.

It’s certainly not a good idea, but I understand the instinct, part of it comes from a desire to simplify thing.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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