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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#276301: Apr 2nd 2019 at 7:55:28 AM

Yeah if ever there’s a time for an honest brain-mouth moment it’s a situation like this, don’t say a long political thing about your intentions, just go “well then, it looks like I right fucked up”.

On th Christianity thing, I’ve always liked the approach shown in the Narnia books, where a literal devil worshiper gets into heaven, because he did good things and helped people in the name of the devil, sure he workshiped Satan, but he did so by helping others and showing kindness to strangers, so to heaven he goes.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#276302: Apr 2nd 2019 at 7:56:17 AM

Tell that to Dominionists

I think I literally have tongue - I think I've argued with Dominionists online about this matter at some point. I think they're crazy, dangerous people.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#276303: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:06:13 AM

We might wanna move this to the Religion thread.

I do think churches in America tend to be slightly more left-leaning than most people would suspect (I'd argue they tend to be economically slightly left, but socially conservative), but I don't think most churches want to be particularly apolitical either.

Personally, I myself would argue being strongly apolitical defeats a very big part of the church's purpose.

Leviticus 19:34
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#276304: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:12:37 AM

When Pastors start telling people from the pulpit who to vote for, I'd rather the church be as apolitical as possible.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#276305: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:12:58 AM

> I do think churches in America tend to be slightly more left-leaning than most people would suspect

Sure,i can see that,smaller churches which actually serve their community are going to be a little more then left wing thus tolerate then say the mega chruches that preach the prosperity gospel and largely run like a business

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#276306: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:15:56 AM

I mean, with smaller churches you also get the crazy cult-like ones that go full conspiracy theory. Like WBC and the ones you hear about people having to literally escape their influence.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#276307: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:20:04 AM

obviously you have extremes on different ends of the spectrum,local churches fall somewhere in the middle

The small crazy ones are family run usually and are not what I'd local since their membership is fairly confined

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#276308: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:22:36 AM

Yeah, they're not really community churches at that point.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Ishntknew Since: Apr, 2009
#276309: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:29:33 AM

"If one truly did not believe they would not bother to deny"

That's absurd. There are plenty of reasons to be outspoken about disbelief in a thing if belief in the thing is so omnipresent, and especially so when it carries so much political capital.

Also, saying "Well, it wouldn't be politically advantageous to push for atheist acceptance, and besides, the New Atheists annoyed and offended a lot of people, so really it's their own fault for their poor treatment" is not the right approach. Atheists are still a persecuted minority in the US. Being openly atheist is political suicide, and it's ridiculously difficult for an atheist to hold even local government office, much less nationally. And then there are a whole host of other issues that are common to other anti-minority discrimination.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#276310: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:33:22 AM

That’s true. Where I have a problem is with big name atheists who are often white men who are also sexists and/or bigots. Like, you can disagree with religion without being a dick.

“I just heard your mom has cancer; I’ll keep her in my prayers”

“That’s stupid, religion is a lie.”

No atheist I’ve met in real life acts like that, but that’s the vibe from the loudmouths like Bill Maher (also an islamaphobe).

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#276311: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:34:42 AM

I find they're vastly more common in online circles.

i'm tired, my friend
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#276312: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:38:22 AM

Most of it is trolling,it's hard to tell really

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Ishntknew Since: Apr, 2009
#276313: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:38:53 AM

I mean, that does happen. But when the thing is "Please stop persecuting us," the correct response isn't "Okay, but like, look at these awful things some people in your group do."

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#276314: Apr 2nd 2019 at 8:39:15 AM

That’s a fair point; I apologize.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#276315: Apr 2nd 2019 at 9:05:00 AM

"If one truly did not believe they would not bother to deny"

That's absurd. There are plenty of reasons to be outspoken about disbelief in a thing if belief in the thing is so omnipresent, and especially so when it carries so much political capital.

Speaking solely for myself, it's not a fight worth having since people are often as not just as, if more more, fanatical about their religious positions as their political ones. Nobody's mind is going to change, and I personally am neither inclined nor skilled enough to attempt it.

Think of me what you will, those are my honest feelings on the matter.

Also the idea behind the quote, as I've always interpreted it is that, in order to deny something exists in the first place, your have to believe/acknowledge it does in some level. I left out the first half if the quote which notes that "Atheists think of the gods all the time, albeit in terms of denial".

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:17:05 AM

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#276316: Apr 2nd 2019 at 9:13:36 AM

I find they're vastly more common in online circles.

I remember a guy in uni who was a hardline argumentative atheist online - NEVER brought it up in person in my presence, though IIRC he was invited to a 'discovering christianity' group at one point.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#276318: Apr 2nd 2019 at 9:29:37 AM

Going back to the Buttigeg discussion a few pages ago:

"not necessarily at gunpoint"

That's a frighteningly ambiguous wording.

His assertion that the world's choices are the American model, the Chinese, the Russian, and the Saudi, and that the American one is committed to freedom, raises a Red Square's worth of red flags.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#276319: Apr 2nd 2019 at 9:32:41 AM

Yeahhhh I missed that earlier, yikes.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#276320: Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:06:53 AM

Just for context because I was a bit lost the quote comes from a Vox interview he did with a guy named Zack Beauchamp

Beauchamp

One of the big underlying ideological questions here is how you see America’s posture towards the world. Not just in terms of moral obligations or intervention in particular countries, but whether you think it’s America’s responsibility to be managing global affairs — to, for example, maintain a dominant military that’s aimed at keeping the peace internationally.

Broadly speaking, I’m asking whether you think America should be playing a hegemonic role in global politics or not.

Pete Buttigieg I think we play a special role. I think that we should play a leading role.

That’s because I believe in the American model. I believe in American values, including American values as spread in the world — not necessarily at gunpoint, but through different means that we have. And I think that matters more than ever, because the Chinese model is being held up as a viable or even preferred alternative to some, and it includes far less room for freedom and rights that we believe are universal.

And there’s a Russian model that isn’t pretty that’s flexing its muscle. There’s a Saudi model. And, among all of these, I think the American model remains most attractive in our commitment to liberty. And so we need to regard ourselves not only as protecting the interests of one state, our own, but also providing a leadership role.

By the way, that’s an example of where American interests and values really reinforce each other. We can either resent the rest of the world or we can lead the rest of the world, but we can’t do both.

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#276321: Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:09:55 AM

Buttigieg isn't wrong about toxic influence coming from Beijing, Moscow and Riyadh, but he could have phrased it in a less bellicose manner.

That said, an assertive (not belligerent, subtle but importance difference) POTUS is something the world dearly needs right now. The US going into even minor isolation is possibly one of the worst case scenarios for international politics at the moment.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Apr 2nd 2019 at 2:12:59 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#276322: Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:10:28 AM

The "gunpoint" thing seems to be a reference to the idea of USA military intervention that Beauchamp brought up.

Buttigieg's point is that we shouldn't only resort to military power in such a role. The wording is such that he's not going to rule it out completely but would rather explore other options first.

Edited by M84 on Apr 3rd 2019 at 1:12:41 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#276323: Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:12:21 AM

Yeah, that doesn't read as "not necessarily at gunpoint, but not not necessarily, nawmsayin'?", so much as 'I think spreading American values is good, which I don't mean in the sense of military intervention'.

It's been fun.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#276324: Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:15:16 AM

[up][up][up]Nature abhors a vacuum, after all. If the USA doesn't fill that role, someone else will step up. And given that the prime contenders are the Kremlin and the CCP...

Edited by M84 on Apr 3rd 2019 at 1:15:58 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#276325: Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:24:21 AM

Can't all superpowers just multilaterally agree not to do that, and kindly leave smaller countries some space to breathe? Like how they agreed not to put weapons in Space, that sort of thing?


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