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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
I have no issues with Christian principles. Remember, I am a Christ. I have an issue with waving them around like some sort of permission slip to do all kind of terrible things. And I am against mixing religion and politics in most cases...though I admit, I kind of give Merkel a pass for citing Christian values as one of the reasons for taking in the refugees back in 2015.
So guess I am mostly against religion being used as an excuse for terrible policies…and against politicians calling onto god in speeches.
Well, no one here is going to disagree with you about using religion as an excuse for hate. That's something we need to oppose. But I think (speaking as an atheist) that invocations like Merkel's and Kasich's might go a long way toward fighting the religious fascists instead of enabling them. The latter will use their twisted religion in the public sphere, so I think it's incumbent on religious people of good faith to state their own position in response and not let the enemy have a monopoly on God - if nothing else, because they're being a really bad example of Christianity.
If someone says that we need to keep Muslims out of America because we're "a Christian nation," someone else should hit them with Deuteronomy 10:19note or a similar verse.
I consider myself Christian first, (democratic) socialist second. The former certainly influenced becoming the latter. The closest thing we have to a Christian party in the UK (that aren't a non-entity who have never gotten any seats) are the Tories (simply because they're more traditional and so have MPs like Rees-Mogg and formerly Widdecombe in it), so sod that for ALL the obvious reasons.
I'm still quite perplexed by the marriage of the Christian groups to the right-wing in the States. All I can think of is that both sides really love 'traditional values', and that a bunch of them would just rather concentrate on being judgemental and defend racism. The focus on a few issues that lead people to become single-issue voters also irks me.
But yeah, the Biblical mandates against the kind of hateful idiocy some of them engage in point to me that they have a set worldview that they like to use the Bible to justify when it suits them, and wilfully ignore large parts of it. I kinda don't want to use No True Scotsman against them, and in fact Christians aren't meant to try and double-guess whether someone else is a real Christian or not, but there are verses about fruits of the spirit and recognising false prophets by their fruits, and I'm just saying... I see some pretty gnarly fruits being put out.
Edited by GoldenKaos on Apr 2nd 2019 at 10:51:10 AM
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."From Vox:
An interview of Pete Buttigieg by Zach Beauchamp.
Pete Buttigieg makes the case for “democratic capitalism”
A few highlights:
When Beauchamp asks him how he feels about the criticism that he's had it easier than female candidates:
If somebody is saying that I should not compete because I’m a man, I don’t know what to say to that. And if somebody is saying that I had it easy, I would invite them to join the military and enter Indiana politics in 2010 as a gay person. See how easy they find it.
Followed by what he thinks about socialism and capitalism:
I think of myself as progressive. But I also believe in capitalism, but it has to be democratic capitalism.
Part of the problem here is that you have one generation that grew up associating socialism with communism like they’re the same thing, and therefore also assuming that capitalism and democracy were inseparable. I’ve grown up in a time when you can pretty much tell that there’s tension between capitalism and democracy, and negotiating that tension is probably the biggest challenge for America right now.
You don’t have to look that hard to find examples of capitalism without democracy — Russia leaps to mind. And when you have capitalism without democracy, you get crony capitalism and eventually oligarchy. So a healthy capitalist system, working within the rule of law, is the stuff of American growth and can be the stuff of equitable growth. But we don’t have that right now.
And while he thinks appealing to GOP legislators is a waste of time, he still thinks there's merit to appealing to conservative-minded voters without pandering to their prejudices (somehow):
Appealing to independents, in particular, has never been more important. It has also never been less connected to ideological centrism, which was the formula in the 90s when we thought of everything ideologically. It seemed very natural that, if you want to appeal to independents, they must be in some middle — and if you’re on the left you just move to the right.
The interview concludes with what he thinks the USA's role in international politics should be:
That’s because I believe in the American model. I believe in American values, including American values as spread in the world — not necessarily at gunpoint, but through different means that we have. And I think that matters more than ever, because the Chinese model is being held up as a viable or even preferred alternative to some, and it includes far less room for freedom and rights that we believe are universal.
And there’s a Russian model that isn’t pretty that’s flexing its muscle. There’s a Saudi model. And, among all of these, I think the American model remains most attractive in our commitment to liberty. And so we need to regard ourselves not only as protecting the interests of one state, our own, but also providing a leadership role.
By the way, that’s an example of where American interests and values really reinforce each other. We can either resent the rest of the world or we can lead the rest of the world, but we can’t do both.
Edited by M84 on Apr 2nd 2019 at 6:28:52 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
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I don't think that there is anything perplexing about it. Remember, religion is opium to the people, consequently left leaning parties tend to take an anti-Religion approach at least in terms of power in the state. And the church itself just happens to be very interwoven with a lot of European countries due to having been in a long power-struggle with the various kings. So at the and of the day, the church presents the status quo, and conservatives are all about preserving the status quo, including current power structures, including the powers the church still has.
Or so they claim. Once the Conservatives slip from "right" to "far right", they are more about rebuilding old power-structures.
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My values were taught to me through religion (even though my parents aren't that religious either). Or at least, some of them were. I grew up on an interesting combination of bible stories and leftist children music and literature. But a lot of what I know about racism, the plight of people in wheel chairs aso I learned at our local church. My preparation for Konfirmation were pretty much weekly lessons in tolerance. And some of them were very practical. Like taking a wheelchair as a group with one of us sitting in it and then trying to use public transport with it. Let's just say that the wheelchair soon stopped being fun (though since then, a lot have been done to make everything more accessible).
But I guess for people who pick a church when they are already grown up, it is the other way around. Or those who decide to listen to a specific preacher.
Edited by Swanpride on Apr 2nd 2019 at 3:36:51 AM
I get that bit, but the American right blocking universal healthcare? Jesus spent half his time healing the sick for free! I get them aligning with generally traditional stuff, but going all hyper-capitalism free market libertarian economics is beyond me.
Also, I was under the impression that Marx wasn't exactly against religion when he coined the opiate of the masses term, just that people shouldn't use religion as an excuse not to improve their own lot in (this) life.
But Christians have a problem sometimes of aligning with the right in culture wars, culture wars they WILL lose, because by aligning with the traditional, they're literally signing up for the team who are on their way out. They did this big time with the temperance movement - it was Churches vs Public Houses for a good chunk of the 19th century, and they lost that one quite hard. And it's just hyper-concentrating on marginal issues and trying to shape the rest of culture/society around them. Urgh.
I got confused in uni when a boy from the valleys described himself as a Christian Communist. I understand where he comes from now.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
I might be totally off the mark, but don't forget that the pilgrims were pretty much the most fundamentalist Christs you could imagine. Like, I was literally confused when I realised that most of those oh so religious people in the US identify as Protestant and not as Catholic, because over here, it is the catholic church which is very traditional, while the Evangelic one tends to be very left-leaning. Which shows that Christianity covers a very broad spectrum, so broad that the label itself might be somewhat meaningless.
This reminds me, one instance of the church becoming "political" I heartily approved of was a priest turning on the bells of his church which just happened to drown out the speech during an NPD rally.
I recently had a discussion with an atheist who didn't get how reasonable people could also be Christian. He eventually understood that there is a difference between considering yourself Christian and supporting the BS of the church.
Edited by Swanpride on Apr 2nd 2019 at 3:47:16 AM
I suppose you have a point with the pilgrims. And I do understand why Christians tend to lean right on many social issues. But I don't understand the leaning right on other issues, especially economics.
Hah, that Priest story reminds me of a friend who used to Admin a 40k FB group with me, he started the group as an offshoot of another 40k group because of tolerance of certain fascist symbols. We always had a no-politics rule in our group, but he always considered opposing the far-right to be a moral stance rather than a political one. And he's joined the clergy by now, which is why he doesn't have the time to be an Admin anymore.
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."American Christianity is heavily influenced by Prosperity Gospel, which essentially says that material wealth is a sign of divine favor. If you're a good person then god will bless you with wealth, and therefore if you're poor it's a sign of moral failing.
If you look at the history of this it's derived more from capitalist ideals than Christian theology, but it's been spread by preachers who embraced mass market methods like TV evangelism.
Edited by Clarste on Apr 2nd 2019 at 4:12:07 AM
He actually started an Anti-Fascists of 40k group and linked it to the main group, which attracted a lot of complaints from people who presumably bought into the 'Antifa = Leftist KKK' narrative, which kinda justified the creation of the group in the first place to be honest. But we also screened people's profiles for far-right imagery and slogans and would refuse their applications if we saw any. Good egg.
Either way, this is sliding off-topic now.
Edit: Eyyyy, we went back on-topic
I won't disagree with you on the prosperity gospel having a lot of influence, but I will point out that some of its most vocal critics are American Reformed and Evangelical Christians, who absolutely denounce it and its materialistic worldview as a complete deviation from Christianity and they correctly consider it to be nothing more than a con game that essentially asset-strips the poor and vulnerable.
Edited by GoldenKaos on Apr 2nd 2019 at 12:18:44 PM
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."Thankfully, only a minority of Christians follow Prosperity influenced congregations and its influence doctrinally is fairly minor but they are the heart of the "corporate churches" I've repeatedly attacked.
It's hard not to think of them as the heart of Scam Religion in the United States.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 2nd 2019 at 5:03:51 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Prosperity Gospel doesn't need to represent a majority of American Christianity if they have outsize political muscle — and I doubt it would matter much. Christians are the ultimate pragmatists and will vote in an utter monster like Trump if that means getting movement on red meat issues like LGBT phobia and abortion access. The left-wing Christian opposition to Trump is probably small and unrepresentative of American Christianity as a whole.
As for atheism, we've lost the battle for public acceptance because the Religious Left is considered The Moral Substitute and honestly it's sort of selfish to expect the expenditure of political capital on atheism's behalf when a progressive appeal to Christian principles brings in more votes. That said, there's going to be a reckoning eventually when something offensive to the Christian umwelt becomes a key feature of political discourse again.
My personal view is that New Atheism did more long term damage to atheism's acceptance since its followers are mostly these days just neckbeards and Islamophobes, and that's tarnished atheism's overall appeal. If they were serious about making atheists appealing, they would have focused on general good works like charity and education, rather than masturbatory TED talks and bus tours disparaging religion. They need to dress impeccably, as well. In essence, atheism needs a really big propaganda push to get positive press.
Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Apr 2nd 2019 at 9:28:44 AM
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."That is a very large brush you're painting my religion with.
Regarding the atheism business, I don't think it's something that should be accepted or rejected like it's a country club. It's just a statement of disbelief in the supernatural with no moral or immorality to it. You can have an ideology around it like Objectivism or Communism or Secular Humanism (one of these is not like the other) but it's no more anything than theism between a Christian or worshiper of Darkseid.
The truth will be the ultimate signpost in the theist vs. atheist debate more than any social club virtues.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Apr 2nd 2019 at 6:19:28 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Intricacies don't really matter if the end result of general Christian action is conservative political advancement.
The general Left Christian assertion that Conservative Christians don't follow first principles might be true, but it isn't yet useful, and it isn't borne out in retrospective polling, where the regular churchgoers are voting GOP and Trump's complete unsuitability based on professed Christian norms didn't prevent them from voting for him by a very large margin.
Also, the heterogeneity of atheism is basically what's killing it. I don't want to be lumped in with odious neoconservatives and libertarians. We're going to have to split up and agree on separate, but unified messages.
Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Apr 2nd 2019 at 9:27:55 AM
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."Yeah, well I blame the fact that this allegiance was deliberately engineered, myself. There's no doubt a tendency there beforehand, but that was cemented in at some point by a targeted campaign.
Edited by GoldenKaos on Apr 2nd 2019 at 2:27:56 PM
"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."While I consider myself a soft atheist/hard agnostic (depending on how you define the terms), I do not align myself with any particular group of atheists as the mere fact that we share a (lack of) faith does not mean we agree on everything else.
The fact that evangelical Christians have, by and large, sold out to the Republican dogma marks them as disgustingly hypocritical to their own faith and I have no respect for them at all, regardless of what I think of Christianity as a whole.
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 2nd 2019 at 9:37:22 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"So protests are being planned by groups if the full report is not released
To achieve this they need to surround the White House and bring Washington to a halt,though even with full pretests they'll still be resultant to release it,because if you have angry protests already the results may mean even more protests and thats what they're afraid of
have a listen and have a link to my discord server

I'd personally draw a line between a politician making a statement of religious values and a support for policies that enshrine preferential treatment for religious organization or belief. John Kasich's St. Peter quotenote is the former, the various "religious exemption to obeying the law" laws are the latter unless there's a damn good reason to allow them.