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CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#275976: Mar 29th 2019 at 5:32:16 AM

The problem with the Electoral College is that it makes presidential elections, where most of the people voting living in urban communities — whether this is coastal communities or Midwestern cities — hostages to a collection of states like Ohio, Florida, Michigan, etc. which, even if they're called swing states are really more like GOP-lite if their local governments and Congressional delegations are considered, and which are painfully behind the times. This is where a razor thin spread of like 40,000 votes — less than 2% of the electorate, is enough to produce commanding EV leads. And it affects the discourse. "Clean coal" would be derided as the fantasy it is if presidential candidates didn't need to go grubbing for support in Appalachia or talk nonsense about bringing 1950s-style industry back from the dead to fellate the reactionary instincts of the Rust Belt. If Democrats and the GOP had to compete for every single vote, they would have to create policies for more extensive vote capture — they couldn't blather about nonsensical campaign cliches.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
StephanReiken Since: May, 2010
#275977: Mar 29th 2019 at 7:14:08 AM

@Wisewillow: Your sole complaint in your recent posts is that the black vote, I assume any minority group yes?, vote gets ignored because you don't need it to win.

How is that a problem with the electoral college?

If you won by only popular vote, where is the difference?

That you only need a majority is the basis of democracy.

The good thing the Electoral College does? It allows a minority vote to win. The bad thing, you could make the arguement that the minority that gets to win is determined by all the gerrymandering.

The Electoral College basically sets up rounding errors on purpose. The electoral votes a state gets is determined by its population. This is an attempt to even the playing field between more and less populated states, so that the states with the highest population do not solely determine the election.

Edited by StephanReiken on Mar 29th 2019 at 7:20:23 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#275978: Mar 29th 2019 at 7:27:19 AM

The difference is that election by popular vote doesn't erase 50% of the ballots cast.

If you are a black person in Georgia, you essentially do not have voting rights. You can participate, sure, but as soon as the state picks Republican, your vote is thrown out.

If you're a farmer in California, it's the same situation. No reason to even bother voting, because the state's voting Democrat. Your vote doesn't matter.

This, as noted, allows a minority-candidate to win an election. Even if three million people voted for his opponent, he still wins because of all those erased votes. But it's a minority-candidate elected by the majority-demographics of fifty different fiefdoms.

This has the result of severely restricting minority voting power, because black voters in Alabama and black voters in Georgia cannot add their votes together into the grand total. They have no power to win their state (barring rare circumstances like Doug Jones), and because of the electoral college, that means their votes are removed from the election as soon as the state decides its candidate. Their votes get erased in Alabama, and then they get erased in Georgia, and then they have no influence on the election result whatsoever.

Any system of voting that involves removing legitimate votes from the ballot box before the final tally is performed is a fundamentally undemocratic system. And at the end of the day, that is what the electoral college is: Candidate X won in this state, so all of Candidate Y's votes get dumped in a fire and burned, and then we move on and do the same in the next state.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 29th 2019 at 8:30:57 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
StephanReiken Since: May, 2010
#275980: Mar 29th 2019 at 7:32:14 AM

So become the majority vote in that state.

You repeated what I said. Electoral College creates rounding errors on purpose such that the minority overall can win.

Trump won office and a minority of people voted for him. The minority group won.

Edited by StephanReiken on Mar 29th 2019 at 7:36:49 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#275981: Mar 29th 2019 at 7:39:31 AM

[up]And you don't see that as a problem?

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275982: Mar 29th 2019 at 7:42:19 AM

[up][up]

....

...

...

Sure, the 40% or so Black populations of all the southern states should just have to move. Leave their homes and communities, start over in a blue state or decide that they’ll all move to one or two southern states to concentrate their numbers. That’s totally fair and reasonable, especially for low-income people, and the side effect of turning swing states into permanent republican Senate seats would definitely not make things worse.

Are you f***ing kidding me?!???

Edited by wisewillow on Mar 29th 2019 at 10:42:51 AM

StephanReiken Since: May, 2010
#275983: Mar 29th 2019 at 7:47:42 AM

They are complaining that a minority group is being suppressed.

The electoral college specifically allows the minority of voters to determine the outcome.

Their proposed change would only make it worse would it not? The minority of votes will always fail if the popular vote was all that counted.

Besides, maybe I'm wrong because The Washington Post reporting is wrong, but the black votes specifically went up for Trump compared to the previous election's Republican candidate.

Black vote went up for Republicans and the Republican candidate won. Their votes mattered.

Do you want the majority vote in a democracatic election to win or not?

You keep putting forward this idea 'If the majority wins, the minority vote didn't matter.'

I am refuting that sentiment.

Edited by StephanReiken on Mar 29th 2019 at 7:51:19 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275984: Mar 29th 2019 at 7:48:27 AM

...

Someone else reply please, I think I just had a rage aneurysm from how wrong literally all of that is.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#275985: Mar 29th 2019 at 7:51:44 AM

The "minority group" only won in terms of the national popular vote. That "minority group" was made up predominately of whites - the majority demographic in the United States, whose disproportionate power as a voting bloc was written into the Constitution from the moment of its drafting. Because whites have so much voting strength in each of the various states, and because those states are decided winner-take-all, a total-population minority of white votes can overpower a proportional majority of ethnic minority votes.

That is exactly the problem.

And it's a deliberate problem written into the electoral college at its conception. The electoral system we have was one that was never meant to allow women or minorities to vote. The American democratic system was conceived as only allowing votes to be cast by wealthy white men, who by virtue of being a) wealthy, b) white, and c) male were deemed to be smarter and to know better than everyone else.

The purpose of the electoral college was to allow wealthy southern whites to vote on behalf of their slaves. Having a higher population of slaves would grant more proportionate power over American democracy to each of the rare and select few allowed to vote on their behalf.

Today, we no longer have slavery (except where we do, ie. prisons, which is another fight) and we no longer in theory restrict voting on a basis of race, class, or gender. But in practice, it's quite a bit more complicated than that and part of the reason for why is because as a majority demographic, whites still have the power as a voting bloc to erase the votes of minorities by winning the state.

The electoral college is an artifact of a shittier time, and it's time for it to go.

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wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275986: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:03:07 AM

[up][up][up]Also, Trump only won 8% of the Black vote in 2016.

So... 92% voted against him.

Don’t you DARE try to claim that “Black vote went up for Republicans and the Republican candidate won. Their votes mattered.”

Trump won because of voter suppression giving him a tiny margin in swing states with republican governors/legislatures and the electoral college nullifying the popular vote. It is absolutely false and absurd to claim that getting 8% of the Black vote was why he won.

Edited by wisewillow on Mar 29th 2019 at 11:03:31 AM

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#275987: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:04:49 AM

Also, "the states" themselves are an anachronism. Metropolitan areas are much bigger drivers of economic growth and culture than states, most of which are about as artificially drawn up as post-colonial Africa. The Boston-to-Washington metro area generates more GDP than any other single area in the country — determining who our president is by a system that connects Boston to the Berkshires, New York City to Plattsburgh, Arlington to inland Virginia, Philadelphia to Pennsyltucky, etc. is inherently outmoded. Count every vote and determine who the President is by that metric. Not by states which haven't had their borders redrawn in more than one hundred and fifty years, and are deliberately weighted to give smaller states more E Vs per capita.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Mar 29th 2019 at 11:07:08 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
StephanReiken Since: May, 2010
#275988: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:09:11 AM

But did that happen?

There are a lot more than two racial groups. I found a useful talking point.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/9/18/16305486/what-really-happened-in-2016

According to a chart in this article, compared to 2012, minority votes went up for Republicans across the board. Trump got more minority demographic votes than the previous Republican candidate. And about the same white votes.

Clinton's only demographic she improved on from the previous candidate was white women. Really, Obama had more of the white vote overall compared to her.

If demographics are all that matter, which is not all that matters but we are discussing demographics in relation to electoral votes...

Trump did not win the popular vote. He lost the popular vote. But the demographics of his voters changed from the previous candidate. Minority demographics votes up, across the board.

Explain how this means the minority vote didnt matter. He got the same white votes and more minority votes, fewer votes in total, and won.

[up][up] Again, majority rules makes that problem worse.

[up] Gerrymandering is a real problem. Probably the worst thing about the electoral college. Needs borders to be drawn by a strictly neutral party based on a set of neutral rules.

Edited by StephanReiken on Mar 29th 2019 at 8:13:58 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275989: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:11:58 AM

Minority as in less than 50% and minority as in non-white are two different things, first of all.

Second of all, for the last goddamn time, if you are a black democratic voter in a red state, YOUR VOTE IS ERASED. Jesus Christ, if 92% of Black voters pick Clinton, but they are less than 50% of their state, THEIR VOTES DON’T COUNT. Trump gets all the electoral college votes for the state, period. This is not a difficult concept.

I’m a (white) democrat in Indiana; my vote for the presidency didn’t exist in 2016, even though 38% of the state voted for Hillary, 100% of the votes went to Trump. That is bullshit. And it’s also bullshit for republicans in California; this screws over EVERYONE in a non-swing state.

Edited by wisewillow on Mar 29th 2019 at 11:15:42 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#275990: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:16:38 AM

If we scrapped the Electoral College completely and adopted a national popular vote for President, we would still have the problem that the minority bloc of voters would have a leader that they did not want. In every election, there are winners and losers.

Ultimately, it's not about whether whites, blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, or whoever get their votes to "count". It's about whether the election results reflect the democratic will of the voters, and the results of the 2016 election make it abundantly clear that this was not the case.

Relating to this concern ([up]), one of the pernicious effects of the Electoral College is that a Republican candidate campaigning in, say, Georgia, only needs to get enough white voters to the polls to hit that 50% margin. They don't need to address the concerns of black voters at all, and indeed can leverage control of the state government to suppress their votes. This doesn't work if the vote is counted nationally. Obviously, they can still try to keep minorities from going to the polls, but the value of any given lost vote is much smaller, and so the effort becomes less rewarding.

It used to be that the Senate was supposed to be the branch of Congress that stuck up for the "little states", but gerrymandering has made the House equally undemocratic. It is clear that we cannot expect this to get addressed on a state-by-state level, because Republicans with solid control over those states won't change their ways for anything short of a Supreme Court-backed Congressional order.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 29th 2019 at 11:22:15 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
StephanReiken Since: May, 2010
#275991: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:21:49 AM

Willow, that arguement doesnt stand when the difference between winning candidates and losing candidates from 2012 to 2016 was where the minority votes went.

Minority demographics shifted towards Republican and Republican won. (I'm not saying a majoirty of them, just a shift. I shouldn't have to specify this.)

The minority votes, a minority of the minority votes pushed to the other side and that side won.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#275992: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:24:04 AM

[up]I don't understand what you're saying.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#275993: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:33:21 AM

something about a minority vote,no idea

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#275994: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:41:25 AM

[up][up] TLDR; Trump won more minorties then Romney did even with his rhetoric, which implies that someone who was less... obvious probably would have won more.

RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275995: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:41:46 AM

I guess I should repeat what others have said in my own words. What's tallied up in the EC is based on binary values. Either a state votes one party or the other; there is no in between. So it doesn't matter how much in favor a state votes for a candidate just so long as it has. This can throw voting stats out of wack. It's been said that with theoretical min maxing, you could be Prez with only 40% of the popular vote or even less.

That, plus marginalised opinions in biased states, yadda yadda yadda.

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GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#275996: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:44:28 AM

I think a bit of correlation = causation is being used here.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
StephanReiken Since: May, 2010
#275997: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:45:34 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by moderation to preserve the dignity of the author.
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275998: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:46:31 AM

That sounds rather suspicious...

If the Republicans really wanted more votes no matter what, wouldn't they have done a better job of pandering to non whites? Maybe even give Puerto Rico and other outlying sectors more attention to give them statehood, hopefully fueling their precious Electoral College?

Edited by RainingMetal on Mar 29th 2019 at 8:49:26 AM

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#275999: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:47:42 AM

If I remember right Trump didn’t win more minority voters than Romney, Clinton just won less than Obama, thus increasing Trump’s percentage with the same actual number of votes.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
StephanReiken Since: May, 2010
#276000: Mar 29th 2019 at 8:51:05 AM

[up] I dont think the arguement holds much merit either. It is tailored specifically to counter the point Willow brings up while ignoring the bigger picture. He makes it about race when the stats dont support it.

Edited by StephanReiken on Mar 29th 2019 at 8:51:50 AM


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