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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#275576: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:05:26 PM

I expect they won't because it's not in their interest to do so.

What about the actions of many controlling capitalist entities makes you think they understand long-term self-interest in the form of ensuring a living consumer base?

Edited by Silasw on Mar 24th 2019 at 4:06:13 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#275577: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:06:14 PM

I'm not saying equality can only happen through violence, I'm saying that anything short of reverting to hunter gatherer lifestyles will only temporarily reduce inequality.

Most things are temporary, Capsase, that does not make them meaningless or irrelevant.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#275578: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:06:22 PM

[up][up]See also: the AAA videogame industry which highlights the issues of unchecked improperly regulated capitalism where the ones in charge are focused only on short-term gains as opposed to long-term health of the industry.

Edited by M84 on Mar 25th 2019 at 12:07:11 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#275579: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:07:46 PM

[up][up][up] The general upwards trajectory of human development over the course of modern history?


[up][up] Yes, but the violent deaths of >100 million people for a dip in inequality that lasted a few decades is not a good value proposition.


[up] People have been saying that for close to 20 years, and the industry is bigger than ever.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:10:55 PM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#275580: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:10:07 PM

[up] That's not what I said, you said that change without violence was temporary. I said that wasn't meaningless.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#275581: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:11:07 PM

Except you’ve already declared that one of the major factors in that development (elites reigning in other elites and boosting equality so as to avoid the wrath of the mob) won’t happen.

I think you’re right that things won’t get as bad as three missed meals, but it’s because there are elites who know what will happen if it does get that bad, they will reign in the others who are threatening to take away all three meals.

Edited by Silasw on Mar 24th 2019 at 4:11:57 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#275582: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:12:14 PM

[up][up][up]The issues with the AAA industry really took off once the whole "games as a service" model became more widespread.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#275583: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:14:37 PM

[up] It started when the US took over the industry and online became popular in Gen 7. When Japan were in charge in Gens 3 through 6 and we didn't have online/online gaming was in it's infancy, we didn't have this shit.

Edited by CookingCat on Mar 24th 2019 at 9:25:51 AM

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#275584: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:17:14 PM

We still had shitty games and price gouging by the truckload though

Oh really when?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#275585: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:19:37 PM

[up][up][up][up] Framing it in the sense of "taking away" implies that this is a zero-sum game. It's not, and that's the point I've been trying to get across; just as the right fails to understand that social issues aren't a zero sum game, the left doesn't understand that the economy isn't a zero sum game, or at least it doesn't have to be.


Nothing material was "taken away" from the working class in developed nations. All in all, they're better off than any other time in human history. The fruits of the modern economy have been distributed unequally, but we're generally fortunate enough not to be dealing with the almost exclusively extractive, rent-seeking behavior of Russian oligarch, with some exceptions like Trump. We can and should push to make things less extractive and more mutualistic, but that's not going to be reverse the trajectory of wealth inequality because the only way to do that is for lower classes to benefit at the expense of the upper classes, which pretty much requires violence.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:20:38 PM

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#275586: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:20:30 PM

I mean do you consider basic regulation and worker's protections to be a form of violence?

Oh really when?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#275587: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:20:46 PM

[up] No, and that actually benefits everyone in the long term by preventing self-destructive rent-seeking/extractive behavior that degrades human capital.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:21:28 PM

CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#275588: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:21:00 PM

[up][up][up][up] Yeah, but shitty games back then were scorned and forgotten instead of becoming huge successes due to advertising, casual gamers and marketing like they are today, and most big developers back then at least tried to make sure the games were complete before release instead of just shitting them out and patching them later and/or withholding content for paid DLC like they do now.

Edited by CookingCat on Mar 24th 2019 at 9:24:51 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#275589: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:23:00 PM

Capsase, I don't know how to put this gently, but Paternal Autocracy is not nor will be an acceptable solution to the worlds ills. Because if you decide that the only way to get a more equal world is through violence, you doom yourself to that. Because people, believe it or not, are not going to stop trying to make their lot better. And you will get plenty that with no way to do it through peace will use violence.

preventing self-destructive rent-seeking/extractive behavior that degrades human capital.

...Is that the real reason to support it? Not because its the right thing to do? Humans are not just capital.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:24:06 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#275590: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:25:17 PM

[up][up]You've got a seriously rose tinted view of how gaming used to be.

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#275591: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:25:58 PM

Nothing material was "taken away" from the working class in developed nations.

So I just dreamed the increase in food insecurity, the rise in homelessness, the destruction of collective bargaining from unions, the touching of the ability of younge people to own their own home, the wrecking of the environment, the drop in the purchasing power of wages, the reduction in government support for the needy and many more things?

All just a dream, god I’m so relived.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#275592: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:29:06 PM

...Is that the real reason to support it? Not because its the right thing to do? Humans are not just capital.

It's a case where where rational self interest leads to an outcome that is consistent with what we consider to be morally right.

[up] My understanding of the primary literature is limited, but it's not quite that clear cut that the net change is for the worse; you have stuff like the Internet, smartphones, more affordable home luxuries, coupled with those declines, and it's not easy to weigh those against one another; it's very likely QOL among the working class in the developed world is stagnant, but it's not clear that it's actually getting worse. If we also consider the developing world, which is IMO more correct given not doing so excludes large swaths of humanity, then the picture is pretty clear; global standards of living have risen substantially.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:34:45 PM

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#275593: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:29:31 PM

That is such a dodge

Oh really when?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#275594: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:40:46 PM

[up] Not really; people will generally do the right thing when it benefits them. Egotistical altruism is by far the most reliable way to get people to behave in a fashion we regard as moral.

ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#275595: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:41:32 PM

Are we. . . just not going to talk about the Mueller report any more?

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#275596: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:42:14 PM

[up]x4 ...Jesus Christ...

See, remember what this conversation was about? About how those things ARE MOSTLY BENEFITING THE UPPER CLASSES?

You cannot seriously be taking the environment dying, measuring it against the internet, and deciding they balance eachother out, right? And inexpensive luxuries only help if the Government wasn't cutting assistance?

You're right. Global living standards have been growing worldwide. This would be a good time to make sure that it does so for everyone, and not just a few.

[up] No, sorry. Maybe after this dies down.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:45:43 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#275597: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:48:49 PM

[up]I'm telling it to die. Everytime this comes up it derails the thread.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#275598: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:49:33 PM

Are we. . . just not going to talk about the Mueller report any more?

TL;DR summary of what's going on: the report clears Trump of intentional collaboration, the House is going to be very interested in getting the full details as to why the AG has cleared him of obstructing justice.

Oh, and now there's nothing in the way for doing their own investigation.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#275599: Mar 24th 2019 at 9:50:16 PM

[mod said to quit it]

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:50:34 PM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#275600: Mar 24th 2019 at 10:00:29 PM

...Then yes. Yes, we will.

Anyway, we only have the summary, but thus far its doing the thing I thought it would. Ie, its not going to be super groundbreaking, and likely won't give us any more valid reasons to want Trump gone than the ones we already have.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer

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