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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Some of the posts in the last...page and a half are, while containing substantial arguments, also including comments on other tropers personally. Please keep this in mind if we are continuing this debate (although, to be honest, it feels that most have said their piece and are just re-stating arguments).
Honestly, I think it's a statement that impeachment against an acquitted politician does not actually have that big of an effect.
The people who hated Clinton kept hating Clinton and the people who loved him felt it was a witch hunt.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Sure. But in neither case was the evidence as overwhelming as in this one. In: It is right there, Trump is openly admitting that he is breaking the rules. And there is a danger that if the Democrats don't impeach, the voters will see them as a toothless (and useless) tiger, way too concerned with politicking and not enough concerned with what is right.
In Nixon's case the majority of the evidence was only revealed AFTER the election, and in Clinton's case a big problem was that a lot of people felt that the republicans overstepped when they turned an investigation into his financial affairs into one into his sex life.
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That's the danger. But it could also be a good way to show the corruption not just of Trump, but of all Republicans who refuse to act on clear evidence. Remember, there is also an important Senate election soon, with a lot of Republican seats on the line.
Edited by Swanpride on Mar 24th 2019 at 11:36:22 AM
Basically, the important piece of context to keep in mind is that impeachment has a 0% chance of success.
Moving to impeach is not a gamble. Russian Roulette is a gamble. This is Russian Solitaire.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Except it could turn Democratic voters against Democrat politicians. Because if you don't impeach, you are condoning.
It looks cowardly, which is the consequence of being a coward.
And I don't use that word lightly.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Sure and a failed impeachment has the possibility of making Trump look innocent and Dems like they’re out to get him over nothing.
If Democrats can get enough hard evidence via investigations than they should push to impeach once they can get the narrative to be that Trump has to be impeached.
Until the narrative is that Trump is obviously a criminal who needs to go the Dems can’t move on him, because if they do the narrative will become they they went after an innocent man and that Trump should be reelected with a Republican house.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranGood idea...especially since the decision "impeach or not" should be based on what Mueller reveals. I do think, though, that there is some kind of threshold between "okay, maybe the democrats are smarter to take another approach" and "this is so bad, they will look like traitors if they don't even try".
So, lets peacefully agree to disagree for now and wait for the shitstorm to begin tomorrow?
Agreed, not to mention that nombretomado is right, at this point there is definitely a feeling that we're just re-stating our position's.
It would be best to shelve the discussion for now.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:27:52 PM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThat's something everyone can agree with.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangReuters adds the word "knowingly" to its report.
"Mueller does not find Trump campaign knowingly conspired with Russia" - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-barr/mueller-does-not-find-trump-campaign-knowingly-conspired-with-russia-idUSKCN1R50RG

Since you keep going on about the quoteblock:
First of all, who but the already politically-inclined will even pay attention to the hearings? We aren't talking the next Marvel movie here; impeachment hearings are long, wordy, and, in the mind of the general public, boring. Everybody who was already sure Trump was guilty of several crimes will remain so, and those who refuse to believe so or know but don't care will stay their respective courses. Nothing much will really change.
Second, if Democrats moving to impeach Trump shows to the world that America does not stand for his crimes, the Senate moving not to shows that actually we're fine with them. So, you know, there goes that. And at best, it shows that Democrats will not tolerate him, while Republicans not only will, but actively embrace and encourage him, which everybody knew already, so again, nothing changes.
I honestly don't know what you expect to come from a House impeachment, but if you're thinking some big shift that's going to turn the tide in our favor somehow, even if Trump stays in office. you're dreaming. Furthermore, there are, as Spartan has said, other ways to pushing back against Trump and his GOP; ways which you are not interested in because of your apparent tunnel vision.
In short, fuck a symbolic victory. I want a real victory. A tangible one. Showing the world we're the good guys only means so much if the bad guys stay in power.
P.S., Pelosi not impeaching Trump isn't capitulation. Just throwing that out there.
i'm tired, my friend