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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#275451: Mar 24th 2019 at 10:57:28 AM

Since you keep going on about the quoteblock:

So what is the point of the House impeaching Trump? An informed public is a powerful public, and hearings are the best way of informing the people on what the White House has done. Autocrats and wannabe autocrats live by their brands, and a symbolic vote of impeachment by the House, sending the world the message that the United States still stands for the rule of law, damages the Trump brand and leaves a mark on it that Ivanka must carry with her as she continues to represent us abroad. The House must begin impeachment proceedings to help restore America's standing in the world and because it is their constitutional duty.

First of all, who but the already politically-inclined will even pay attention to the hearings? We aren't talking the next Marvel movie here; impeachment hearings are long, wordy, and, in the mind of the general public, boring. Everybody who was already sure Trump was guilty of several crimes will remain so, and those who refuse to believe so or know but don't care will stay their respective courses. Nothing much will really change.

Second, if Democrats moving to impeach Trump shows to the world that America does not stand for his crimes, the Senate moving not to shows that actually we're fine with them. So, you know, there goes that. And at best, it shows that Democrats will not tolerate him, while Republicans not only will, but actively embrace and encourage him, which everybody knew already, so again, nothing changes.

I honestly don't know what you expect to come from a House impeachment, but if you're thinking some big shift that's going to turn the tide in our favor somehow, even if Trump stays in office. you're dreaming. Furthermore, there are, as Spartan has said, other ways to pushing back against Trump and his GOP; ways which you are not interested in because of your apparent tunnel vision.

In short, fuck a symbolic victory. I want a real victory. A tangible one. Showing the world we're the good guys only means so much if the bad guys stay in power.

P.S., Pelosi not impeaching Trump isn't capitulation. Just throwing that out there.

i'm tired, my friend
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275452: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:05:39 AM

We've also seen how a failed impeachment affected the Clinton administration and Bill's legacy.

Except, the Republicans WON the next election.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#275453: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:16:55 AM

By a hair, due to Supreme Court fuckery. And the 1998 election was also influenced (in the other direction) by the Clinton impeachment.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#275454: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:18:07 AM

[up][up]I legitimately can not tell if that's meant to be in favor of or against impeachment.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#275455: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:20:15 AM

[up][up]Yeah and you trust the current SCOTUS not to do fuckery?

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nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#275456: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:20:35 AM

Some of the posts in the last...page and a half are, while containing substantial arguments, also including comments on other tropers personally. Please keep this in mind if we are continuing this debate (although, to be honest, it feels that most have said their piece and are just re-stating arguments).

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275457: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:21:25 AM

Honestly, I think it's a statement that impeachment against an acquitted politician does not actually have that big of an effect.

The people who hated Clinton kept hating Clinton and the people who loved him felt it was a witch hunt.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#275458: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:22:35 AM

Sure. But in neither case was the evidence as overwhelming as in this one. In: It is right there, Trump is openly admitting that he is breaking the rules. And there is a danger that if the Democrats don't impeach, the voters will see them as a toothless (and useless) tiger, way too concerned with politicking and not enough concerned with what is right.

In Nixon's case the majority of the evidence was only revealed AFTER the election, and in Clinton's case a big problem was that a lot of people felt that the republicans overstepped when they turned an investigation into his financial affairs into one into his sex life.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#275459: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:24:46 AM

And there is a danger that if the Democrats don't impeach, the voters will see them as a toothless (and useless) tiger, way too concerned with politicking and not enough concerned with what is right.
And a failed impeachment attempt would not have much the same toothless tiger effect?

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#275460: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:34:51 AM

@3of4, absolutely not, they are even worse now. But the GOP wasn't helped in 2000 by their attempt to impeach Bill Clinton, is what I was getting at.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275461: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:35:46 AM

NVM

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 24th 2019 at 11:36:01 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#275462: Mar 24th 2019 at 11:36:11 AM

[up][up][up] That's the danger. But it could also be a good way to show the corruption not just of Trump, but of all Republicans who refuse to act on clear evidence. Remember, there is also an important Senate election soon, with a lot of Republican seats on the line.

Edited by Swanpride on Mar 24th 2019 at 11:36:22 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#275463: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:00:02 PM

Basically, the important piece of context to keep in mind is that impeachment has a 0% chance of success.

Moving to impeach is not a gamble. Russian Roulette is a gamble. This is Russian Solitaire.

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275464: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:04:10 PM

Except it could turn Democratic voters against Democrat politicians. Because if you don't impeach, you are condoning.

It looks cowardly, which is the consequence of being a coward.

And I don't use that word lightly.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#275465: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:07:26 PM

Sure and a failed impeachment has the possibility of making Trump look innocent and Dems like they’re out to get him over nothing.

If Democrats can get enough hard evidence via investigations than they should push to impeach once they can get the narrative to be that Trump has to be impeached.

Until the narrative is that Trump is obviously a criminal who needs to go the Dems can’t move on him, because if they do the narrative will become they they went after an innocent man and that Trump should be reelected with a Republican house.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#275466: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:10:31 PM

Honestly, I feel we should table this line of discussion for now because I think it can be honestly argued both ways and we lack any hard evidence toward either.

So, lets peacefully agree to disagree for now and wait for the shitstorm to begin tomorrow?

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#275467: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:17:22 PM

Good idea...especially since the decision "impeach or not" should be based on what Mueller reveals. I do think, though, that there is some kind of threshold between "okay, maybe the democrats are smarter to take another approach" and "this is so bad, they will look like traitors if they don't even try".

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275468: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:27:31 PM

Honestly, I feel we should table this line of discussion for now because I think it can be honestly argued both ways and we lack any hard evidence toward either.

So, lets peacefully agree to disagree for now and wait for the shitstorm to begin tomorrow?

Agreed, not to mention that nombretomado is right, at this point there is definitely a feeling that we're just re-stating our position's.

It would be best to shelve the discussion for now.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:27:52 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275469: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:30:35 PM

Let's hope more for forcing the Mueller findings into the open first.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275470: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:51:46 PM

Let's hope more for forcing the Mueller findings into the open first.

That's something everyone can agree with.

And I do mean everyone.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#275471: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:52:18 PM

CNN is reporting that Mueller did not find any direct evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. This is only based on the summary Barr released, and other probes are ongoing.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#275472: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:53:06 PM

CNN: “The Special Counsel’s investigation did not find that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired or coordinated with Russia in its efforts to influence the 2016 US Presidential Election.”

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#275473: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:56:12 PM

Reuters adds the word "knowingly" to its report.

"Mueller does not find Trump campaign knowingly conspired with Russia" - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-barr/mueller-does-not-find-trump-campaign-knowingly-conspired-with-russia-idUSKCN1R50RG

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275474: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:56:26 PM

I really hope no one uses that as a sign to start aggressively push defeatism or Q-Anon lite.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#275475: Mar 24th 2019 at 12:59:50 PM

[up][up][up]Really? I have a hard time to belief that….

[up][up]Edit: That makes a little bit more sense. What a difference one word can make.

Edited by Swanpride on Mar 24th 2019 at 1:00:49 AM


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