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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
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The people selling that stuff are actually Americans, not locals (well, ok, they may be locals in the sense of living just across the border, but they're not Tijuana residents, at least), and the arrests were made in Mexico.
Probably has less to do with sympathy and more to do with the fact that if they were tried, the Trump administration would use it to demonize Mexico ("They're jailing our citizens, but complain when we jail their illegals.") despite the fact that the crime they committed was technically against the US.
Edited by Robrecht on Mar 24th 2019 at 1:20:04 PM
Angry gets shit done.I don't know what about this is so hard to comprehend.
Exactly, impeachment will inevitably fail and has a very real risk of blowback. A sense of moral rightness simply is not worth it, I'd much rather do what we can to undermine Trump and secure 2020. Investigation not impeachment.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangIn the house it just needs a majority.
It’s a difficult needle to thread, a failed impeachment could have one of two narrative outcomes, “Trump vindicated after partisan democrat impeachment attempt” or “Republican senators refuse to give up on Trump despite overwhelming evidence of numerous crimes”.
The former could win Trump 2020 and maybe even throw to the House back to the Republicans, the later could win the Dems not just the White House but also a strong senate majority.
It’s a risky play and one I’m glad is being decided by Pelosi and not me.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
A rather insightful way to put it, I think you're right that impeachment is very much high-risk high-reward gambit.
Which is why I prefer investigating Trump, it's low-risk medium reward. I just don't think these kind of risks are worth it when discussing the possibility of a Trump 2020 victory. Better we take the most thorough and reliable means possible.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangImpeachment proceedings drive the narrative. Not impeaching him is seen as a sign that he didn’t really do anything that bad.
Most people didn’t support Watergate until after several months (over a year?) of investigation had already been ongoing; it takes a while to shift public opinion.
For God’s sake, Benjamin Franklin said impeachment was appropriate if the president rendered himself “obnoxious;” not even trying to impeach on a laundry list of abuses because the Republicans in the Senate will kill it is giving up a chance to change the public narrative on Trump and show the republicans for the craven flunkies that they are. You should always try to enforce accountability.
“Hey, immigrants in camps, we should impeach, and fight as hard as possible to help you, buuuut the republicans will overrule us anyway so *shrug* we’re not gonna try.”
Edited by wisewillow on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:23:06 PM
I think you're missing a key point here. Everything you've said may be true but, as things currently stand, none of it matters if the Republicans won't go along with impeachment themselves.
Edit to Add: The general tone, at least here, is that trying and failing carries stiffer consequences than not trying at all/continuing to investigate. If so, and given the near-certainty of failure, not impeaching likely is the best move.
Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 24th 2019 at 10:22:01 AM
And I strongly disagree. You don’t only bring cases you can win, you bring them when it’s the right damn thing to do. And yes, it DOES matter, even if it will likely fail!!!
This attitude of “well it won’t work anyway so don’t try because tactics” infuriates me.
It’s why no one bothers prosecuting white collar crime, cause oh, well, the rich person/company will use fancy lawyers to get out of big consequences most of the time, so no one brings those cases, so it then becomes EVEN HARDER to bring future cases because the behavior has been normalized.
Edited by wisewillow on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:26:36 PM
Large swathes (enough to possibly sway 2020) of the public will see an impeachment acquittal as absolution for most of Trump's biggest offenses. It is not worth the practical risk, and it won't do shit to stop Trump's abuses anyway. We live in the real world, and winning elections is the big thing, not playing Doomed Moral Victor to a pack of reactionaries.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.Or the impeachment proceedings will flip over the rock to show teeming corruption, the republicans will do nothing in the face of overwhelming evidence, and infuriated democratic and independent voters will swarm to the polls.
Yeah, we live in the real world, where you don’t just throw up your hands and give up on enforcing what’s right because it’s hard, because that sets awful precedent going forward and it abdicates responsibility.
As journalist Sarah Kendzior put it:
Let us be clear: we do not think that, if the House impeaches Trump, the GOP-dominated Senate will convict. We also do not think that if the Senate, by some miracle, impeaches Trump, that he will leave. Trump has made it clear he will not leave office even if the will of the people demands it in an election, and even if the will of Congress demands it in impeachment. Trump is an aspiring autocrat, and the GOP is seeking a one-party state.
So what is the point of the House impeaching Trump? An informed public is a powerful public, and hearings are the best way of informing the people on what the White House has done. Autocrats and wannabe autocrats live by their brands, and a symbolic vote of impeachment by the House, sending the world the message that the United States still stands for the rule of law, damages the Trump brand and leaves a mark on it that Ivanka must carry with her as she continues to represent us abroad. The House must begin impeachment proceedings to help restore America's standing in the world and because it is their constitutional duty.
Impeachment sends a message about who we are as a country and what we will accept and abide. The rule of law demands action. Refusing to take action is normalizing atrocity. Lawlessness must be confronted regardless of the outcome, as a matter of principle and conscience. Fighting only the battles that you know you will win is a sure way of ensuring you lose; preemptive surrender, in a rapidly consolidating autocracy, is permanent surrender. The American people have suffered enough under Trump; they should not have to suffer due to Pelosi’s capitulation as well. We all deserve better than this.
Edited by wisewillow on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:32:26 PM
Very likely the Democrats since they're the ones who pulled the impeach card in the first place. Not only Republican voters will get to gloat, Democrat voters might feel like they voted in a bunch of morons that couldn't impeach the biggest moron in the country.
Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.Yeah, we live in the real world, where you don’t just throw up your hands and give up on enforcing what’s right because it’s hard, because that sets awful precedent going forward and it abdicates responsibility.
Do you know what else can reveal the teeming corruption? Investigations, lots of them. And they don't have the risk of exploding in our face and guaranteeing Trump's re-election.
It is frankly disingenuous to reduce our concerns to "it's hard", the actual reason we oppose impeachment at this juncture is that it's doomed to fail and has a very real chance of massively backfiring. You can disagree but please don't misrepresent our positions like that.
Opposing quixotic impeachment is not surrender, it's the greater good.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 24th 2019 at 10:13:24 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

America pays for the wall: thieves mock Trump by stealing border razor wire
Mexicans are building fences, and America has already paid for them.
In recent months, US authorities have unrolled miles of razor wire along the border with Mexico as part of efforts to “harden” the frontier and deter migrants from entering America illegally.
But thieves in the city of Tijuana have made a mockery of Donald Trump’s attempts at beefing up border security by stealing the razor wire and reselling it to local residents in Mexico.
Residents of barrios abutting the border told XETW 12 television in Tijuana that entrepreneurial individuals have offered to sell them the stolen concertina wire and install it for just 40 pesos per home – barely $2.
Fifteen people have been arrested for stealing concertina wire, according to XETW 12, but none were held for long. The wire they offered to locals matches what was installed on the border and is not sold in Mexican hardware stores, according to local media.
One resident, identified as Verónica, told El Sol de Tijuana newspaper that the man selling the wire was clearly not from Mexico. “It was an American punk: blue eyes, blond hair. He didn’t speak Spanish very well,” she said.
She said the man had pushed a shopping cart full of concertina wire through the streets of her neighbourhood, offering it to local homeowners. “If we’d known it was from the wall, one wouldn’t have bought anything,” she said.
Miles of concertina wire were installed along the border as caravans of Central American migrants began arriving in Mexican border cities, and Trump started describing the situation as a national emergency. The US president is still struggling to secure funding to build a border wall.
But the wire is proving attractive for residents of Tijuana, where the homicide rate reached 138 per 100,000 residents – making it the most murderous city in the world, according to the Mexican thinktank the Citizens’ Council for Public Security and Criminal Justice.
Local security officials blame the recent rise in violence in Tijuana on drug dealing disputes, especially the market for methamphetamines.
Into the violence in Tijuana, the US government has started returning asylum seekers – with claims in US courts – to the city under an initiative known as “Remain in Mexico”. The asylum seekers are required to stay in Mexico until their cases are decided.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Mar 24th 2019 at 12:22:14 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from history