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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#275301: Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:45:50 AM

I mean, I imagine cultural inertia is a big part of this, yeah. There are thousands upon thousands of books out there; none is so valuable that its niche can't be filled by a different one.

That by itself isn't actually an argument to remove it, but it also means that doing so isn't the end of the world.

Edited by LSBK on Mar 22nd 2019 at 1:47:38 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275302: Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:46:26 AM

But why is he important? Why should he be taught over other writers? Because of sales figures? By that metric, in 100 years Twilight and James Patterson books should be taught.

Why not teach some of Twain’s short stories instead? Why is Huck Finn so essential?

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#275303: Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:48:39 AM

"But why is he important?"

Because his work was hugely important in the establishment of the unique American Literary tradition.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#275304: Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:49:59 AM

@Tobias Drakenote : Nobody here ever said HF should be mandatory reading, just that there isn't a strong argument for why it shouldn't be studied.

The best argument I've heard is that there are better books to teach kids about the subject, and while that's fair enough, getting HF out of the school curriculum isn't gonna guarantee any of those would be put in its place, either.

Which is all a moot point, anyway, as the bill presented is more of a suggestion and not legally binding in any way.

Edited by HailMuffins on Mar 22nd 2019 at 3:52:18 PM

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#275305: Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:50:29 AM

There are two questions I have. How many books are on the required reading list and what is the purpose of the required reading list?

If I'm making a list of the top 10 best sci-fi books, number 11 isn't making it on the list, but would in a top 20. Neither would 'To kill a mocking bird' because it's not sci-fi, but if the list was of best books ever, it might.

Edited by Soban on Mar 22nd 2019 at 2:53:14 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275306: Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:52:43 AM

It depends on the school. The high school I taught at did about 1-2 full books per semester, so 2-4 books per year (along with short stories, writing projects, etc).

So most kids will read about 8-16 books in high school. AP or college prep classes will likely do around 6 or more books a year, so 24 during high school.

The purpose is to build critical analysis and writing skills by analyzing aspects of each book, be it themes, plot, writing style, etc.

Edited by wisewillow on Mar 22nd 2019 at 2:54:52 PM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#275307: Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:55:41 AM

Assuming, of course, it is possible and practical to do so, shouldn't that number be expanded a little?

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275308: Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:57:00 AM

It’s not practical. Kids are at a variety of reading levels, so books take time. Plus they read short stories, poems, nonfiction articles, and do writing/research projects. English class isn’t just reading books all semester. Plus there’s all the standardized testing bullshit.

Edited by wisewillow on Mar 22nd 2019 at 3:00:16 PM

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#275309: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:06:28 PM

So the Top 25 best books to analyze for themes, plot, writing style, ect.

I'm not sure I'd put HF on that list. Mainly because it's a short list.

[down] I'm being generous, if it doesn't make the top 25 it's not making the top 15.

Edited by Soban on Mar 22nd 2019 at 3:08:51 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275310: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:07:26 PM

That’s advanced classes. Regular classes will do 8-16 books.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275312: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:39:13 PM

Twitter: Could a conservative political party win elections in this country where every American can cast a ballot that counts equally? Absolutely. But the GOP increasingly can't, at least in its current form, and it's acting accordingly.

Exactly, Conservatism is not inherently unelectable. It's just that its current stewards have become increasingly mindlessly extreme and undemocratic and as such have to oppose proper fair democratic systems.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#275313: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:40:04 PM

[up] Arguably the GOP isn’t even particularly conservative these days.

They should have sent a poet.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#275315: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:41:32 PM

The farm states will starve out the other states. What's so hard to grasp? Let's have an actual war. Bring it, baby. (I hope I don't need to pothole Sarcasm Mode there.)

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 22nd 2019 at 3:41:50 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275316: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:42:29 PM

I think of Huckleberry Finn as the most important book by Mark Twain (one of the greatest writers of American history) because it's an anti-slavery work written in an anti-slavery time by a person who grew up around slavery but still recognized it as the fucked up evil institution it was. Also, it's all about questioning authority and traditional values.

It encourages white children to become better people and attack privilege.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:47:39 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#275317: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:44:39 PM

I never read Huckleberry Finn in high school (I think we read Their Eyes Were Watching God or something, as mentioned earlier) and I never felt I was lacking something great. And I did read it on my own time at one point, but it didn't make a huge impression on me either way. Of course I was younger at the time so maybe I didn't get the historical context enough to appreciate it? I do like Mark Twain as a writer though.

Actually, I would say the best reason to keep Twain or Shakespeare in high school curriculum is to focus on them as writers of raunchy comedies, so that high school students don't grow up thinking of the "classics" as only dry, serious works that they hated reading in school.

Edited by Clarste on Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:46:01 PM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#275318: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:47:11 PM

Incidently, the state that grows the most food is California.

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#275319: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:51:22 PM

Yeah, California is far more self-sufficient than most other states,

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#275320: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:52:06 PM

The food-growing parts of California tend to be conservative and there has long been a secession movement based on that divide.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#275321: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:54:22 PM

Including trying to divide them into different states,which is nuts

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#275322: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:57:02 PM

Which are often agitated by outsiders, including some dudes who led Brexit.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#275323: Mar 22nd 2019 at 12:58:42 PM

So, let's take this apart....

First Mark Twain himself. To put him in the context of his time, he wasn't just a progressive, he was EXTREMELY progressive. He developed from being an Imperialist to being a staunch Anti-Imperialist. He was an outspoken Civil Rights advocate. He wasn't just for the abolishment of slavery, he was for equal rights for blacks, too. He even went so far to personally pay for the education of at least two Afro-Americans, and I can't imagine that Yale was particularly cheap.

His opinions on Native Americans were initially iffy, but like his stance on imperialism, he changed considerably over time (basically the more he read, the more open-minded he got).

He was also pro-Woman voting rights. His "votes for women" speech is legendary, and he supported the career of Helen Keller.

In short, he was one of those annoying lefty snowflakes who are always going on about what they just learned in gender studies tongue

So DON'T make the mistake to act as if he was just "fair for his time". He wasn't. Huckleberry Finn was an extremely social critical book which addressed a LOT of the problems which were present in US Society back then. It was considered radical back then, and while I do understand the desire to have a more diverse set of writers, I don't think that this desire automatically translates to "Ah, why is there a reason to discuss this book anyway".

To me the question is: What kind of curriculum are we talking about? Are we talking about wanting to teach literature or children's literature in general? Well, in this case, yeah, there is a lot one could pick from which isn't Huckleberry Finn. Are we talking about wanting to teach important literature/personalities form the 19th century? Then Mark Twain is kind of a must, and Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn are basically the two logical books to pick. Same if you want to talk about "Great American Novels".

Btw, since there was some confusion: Tom Sawyer is the book in which Tom Sawyer is constantly up to no good and eventually reveals a big murderer and finds a treasure together with his friend, outsider Huckleberry Finn. Huckleberry Finn is the story in which Huckleberry flees from his abusive father by travelling with an escaped slave down the Mississippi. Both stories are heavily based on Mark Twain's own experiences as a child and young man.

Anyway, why I don't necessarily think that the book belongs into every curriculum, depending on what is supposed to be the specific subject of study, it belongs into some of them. And that the word "nigger" is used in abundance is demonstrating the racism present during the time it was written. Large passages of the book are about Huckleberry musing that he is breaking the law by helping Jim, and if he will end up in hell for doing it. If there is something the book does well than it is showing the conflict of the individual with society and how the right thing isn't always what so called figures of authorities claim to be right.

Saying that it is a "racist book" just doesn't do the man who wrote it justice.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#275324: Mar 22nd 2019 at 1:03:47 PM

Is there really much point in still going on about this? Everyone's already said there piece, and there have to be more pertinent things to talk about.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#275325: Mar 22nd 2019 at 1:08:19 PM

If we don't want harassment, then perhaps we shouldn't harass.

Tell that to pretty much every woman ever, especially in politics. They are going to harass us whether we're "nice" or not. What part of this don't you understand?

i'm tired, my friend

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