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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#275201: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:35:21 AM

@wisewillow Again, if you want to do a better, more inclusive curriculum fine, and I HOPE that this was the start of the news which then got contorted into a framing which will hurt the cause. Because I can certainly get behind redoing the curriculum into something which takes a closer look at race issues and which provides a broader perspective. But implicitly labelling Marc Twain of all people as racist might not be the best start to do that.

In fact, not just fine I am all FOR a new curriculum for US school. and I am pretty dispassionate about the question if Huckleberry Finn will still be on it or not (personally I would add a "introduce you favourite book to the class" exercise, and if someone picks Huckleberry Finn, so be it).

Edited by Swanpride on Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:37:59 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#275202: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:36:05 AM

Yep,even has blurp at beginning saying to effect of "Don't analyse this story"

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Mar 22nd 2019 at 3:36:34 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275203: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:37:49 AM

[up][up] The bill’s basic premise is “stop teaching this mediocre racist book and teach something else.”

Also, Mark Twain “of all people” was not some amazing anti-racism advocate who should be immune to criticism.

Edited by wisewillow on Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:38:16 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275204: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:38:23 AM

My opinion on the removal of Huckleberry Finn is complicated the same way that James Gunn's removal from GOTG was (before his restoral) due to the people about its removal. The people may have a point asking for the removal but what is their agenda and who profits from it?

In my state, the people who want HF removed aren't doing it because the racist language. They're doing it because it explicitly shows slavery as evil and that the protagonist should hate it. It also shows him coming around to the belief and seeing through the hypocrisy of the South.

Yes, in the 1980s and 1990s, the motivations were to make sure the South remained romanticized.

And I am VERY SKEPTICAL that there will be a book that deals with slavery replacing it and as widely read versus the subject becoming an Un-person.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:38:56 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#275205: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:39:26 AM

[up][up] Only this mediocre book? Or is there a list of mediocre books?

Wouldn't it make more sense to introduce a bill saying "let's redo the whole curriculum"?

Edited by Swanpride on Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:39:38 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275206: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:39:36 AM

[up][up]My high school that I taught at replaced Huck Finn with Their Eyes Were Watching God. I was annoyed to do new lesson plans but overall it’s a better book, written by a Black woman, Zora Neale Hurston. And the situation in your state isn’t the same as the bill we’re discussing.

[up] That’s much, much harder than “please stop teaching this one racist n-bomb filled book.”

Edited by wisewillow on Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:41:06 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#275207: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:40:14 AM

From what I'm reading, Twain was well-meaning in that he was pro-abolition and pro-women's suffrage, but that doesn't mean the book he wrote isn't horrendously dated at best. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think most schools teach "Uncle Tom's Cabin" either.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#275208: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:41:03 AM

[up][up] Okay, for clarification: If the high schools can decide freely which book is taught, why is there a need to put this in a bill?

[up] Yes, but Uncle Tom's Cabin creates a narrative of "good vs bad slave owners" (ironically despite having been written for propaganda purposes). Huckleberry Finn is pretty clear that even if a slave ends up with a good/well-meaning slave owner, slavery is still evil.

Edited by Swanpride on Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:43:29 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275209: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:41:14 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]Comparing it to Gunn is nonsensical, he made a joke years ago that he apologized for and showed true evidence of change. Comparing his firing over that (and thankfully later rehiring) to a racist book that is not essential being removed from school curriculum makes little sense.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:42:12 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275210: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:41:30 AM

[up][up]So that all the schools STOP teaching it.

[down] Citation? I’ve only ever seen Black teachers and journalists complain about Huck Finn being mediocre and racist.

Edited by wisewillow on Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:43:04 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275211: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:42:04 AM

Just noting that the attacks on Huckleberry Finn have been for decades and generally from the Neo-Confederate Right.

Also, Mark Twain “of all people” was not some amazing anti-racism advocate who should be immune to criticism.

The credentials of being, "guy who grew up in a slave culture who thinks slave culture was evil" actually is a pretty good argument the man had a pretty rock solid decency.

He was a brilliant satirist and thinker as well as The Cynic.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#275212: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:43:24 AM

If you want this to not seem stupid, you start with "we think these books would be better". Not "in the modern day this book is racist" and have the other books as a suggestion.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275213: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:43:48 AM

Just noting that the attacks on Huckleberry Finn have been for decades and generally from the Neo-Confederate Right.

You're being disingenuous, Democrats are the ones proposing it. The only reason to bring up the Neo-Confederate Right is if you have evidence those Democratic officials follow that ideology. Otherwise, you're verging on Hitler Ate Sugar.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:44:19 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275214: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:44:58 AM

If you want this to not seem stupid, you start with "we think these books would be better". Not "in the modern day this book is racist" and have the other books as a suggestion.

...

Are you saying we should alter the books to remove the racism? That... does not sound like a superior option to just removing them from the curriculum.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#275215: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:45:35 AM

I can buy that where Charles lives neo-confeferates have been opposing the book for the reasons he said, but that does not mean that there are not other more substantial reasons to oppose teaching the book.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275216: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:46:03 AM

Telling schools “you must teach X book instead” is much more intrusive than “pick any book except this one.”

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#275217: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:46:11 AM

>Serious question: Since posters above me have already covered Cruz, what's AOC actually done to warrant that kind of action?

>There's also tribalism involved: "The people I voted for are all wonderful and unfairly tarnished by the other side, but the other side's people are evil incarnate and I am totally justified in sending them death threats."

I don't think I said that AOC does warrant it. (I'm not convinced that any politician deserves the specific example I mentioned.) It doesn't matter what the actual positions are, tribalism is a thing and our solutions to problems in politics should take that into account. Saying that our people are good and shouldn't be harassed but the other side's people are evil and should sounds like a tribalistic double standard to me regardless of who is saying it. Especially if no one should be harassed at all.

Edited by Soban on Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:46:45 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275218: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:46:21 AM

There have been language altered versions of Huckleberry Finn.

But I think she means, "These books would be better by different authors about the same subject."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#275219: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:48:55 AM

Are you saying we should alter the books to remove the racism? That... does not sound like a superior option to just removing them from the curriculum.

See what Charles said.

My point is that they get the order backwards and focused the debate on the qualities of Twain's work as regards racism. Again.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#275220: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:49:22 AM

I actually never had to read the book for high school, so I’m certainly not of the opinion that it’s irreplaceable. I’m not going to argue fervently for its removal (and honestly, I’m kind of iffy on it essentially being illegal to include it in the curriculum, unless I’m badly misunderstanding the bill), but I don’t think it needs to be there.

I do think that Mark Twain himself should still be taught, at least, but he had other works that should do just fine, and aren’t racist either.

Oh God! Natural light!
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#275221: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:49:58 AM

Saying that our people are good and shouldn't be harassed but the other side's people are evil and should sounds like a tribalistic double standard to me regardless of who is saying it.

I don't think anyone is saying that.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#275222: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:51:03 AM

>I don't think anyone is saying that.

Then you haven't been reading this thread. If you want to know what tribalism looks like in practice, this thread is a pretty good example.

That's not to say that many of the points raised here aren't valid. However, tribalism isn't about if what is being said about the other side is true, it's about the mentalities of groups of people regarding the ingroup and the outgroup. Here, Democrats are the in group and the Republicans are the outgroup.

Edited by Soban on Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:57:54 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#275223: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:51:38 AM

I find this discussion of Huckleberry Finn to be a good example of the autocannibalism of the Left. People are actually murdering blacks over racism in this country and we're fighting over a book that's been taught in schools for decades whose message is against racism.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 22nd 2019 at 11:51:58 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#275224: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:52:32 AM

[up]Isn't this basically just Appeal to Worse Problems? We can do more than one thing at once.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#275225: Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:52:36 AM

See what Charles said.

My point is that they get the order backwards and focused the debate on the qualities of Twain's work as regards racism. Again.

Except that's not backwards. No one is saying that Twain should've used modern values on race when writing it, they're saying we should use modern values on race when judging whether it should be in a modern school curriculum.

What it brings to the table does not justify the n-word usage. Fair for its time applies only to its time.

Isn't this basically just Appeal to Worse Problems? We can do more than one thing at once.

It's exactly Appeal to Worse Problems.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 22nd 2019 at 8:53:09 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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