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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#275001: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:00:52 PM

You seem to be taking a particularly dim view of historians ability to eventually arrive at something approaching the correct answer.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#275002: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:01:09 PM

Imagine a bunch of history students in the new ‘90 learning about the enfranchisement of African Americans and thinking that southern governments and people were totally cool with it and heroes who went along with it.

I get your concern about Lee getting whitewashed, but there’s a risk of Mrs. C. Helen Plane (the women behind Stone Mountain), or George Wallace getting whitewashed if we aren’t carful.

Edited by Silasw on Mar 20th 2019 at 3:04:07 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#275003: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:04:29 PM

[up]xsome amount: At that point you might have said archaeologist think that he's George Patton. Unfortunately, we cannot predict what they will do, but if our record keeping is good enough they should know he wasn't a hero.

Look. I understand the queasiness. Believe me, I want to see them all torn down ASAP. But you got to trust that historians can properly contextualize their work.

If we do have so many records from this time period, they'll almost certainly piece together why he's a piece of shit.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 20th 2019 at 11:05:16 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#275004: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:05:55 PM

Guys this has been going on for several pages now.

Surely we have something to do that go in circles?

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#275005: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:07:23 PM

We’re better off if they find a statue of Lee in the ruins of a museum and can translate the word “traitor” written under it, than if they find a statue of him in a field somewhere.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#275006: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:10:55 PM

[up]With our luck the word "traitor" will be mistranslated or the inscription will be worn down. Leaving only the statue.

Disgusted, but not surprised
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#275007: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:13:41 PM

Thinking about that, what are the chances that the English language of today is comprehensible to people speaking the language in like, 500 years?

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#275008: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:15:13 PM

With some work.

People can still train themselves to read Chaucer, and Shakespeare we mostly lost the puns. Also we have a minor benefit now of spelling in English not being "what you feel like".

Edited by RainehDaze on Mar 20th 2019 at 3:15:35 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275009: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:27:50 PM

Speaking of which, I feel like we need a Cato the Elder to say, "Stone Mountain's Mural of Traitors must be destroyed" until that monument is destroyed.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#275010: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:30:04 PM

Also for additional evil points Stone Mountain was/is sacred to an Indian tribe. And is the largest mass of granite in the world.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#275011: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:32:38 PM

Stacey Abrams outright called it a blight upon the state and wanted the whole thing sandblasted.

Edited by M84 on Mar 20th 2019 at 11:32:58 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#275012: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:34:13 PM

That's the thing about statues. They are shorthand for "this person was awesome!"

And posters aren't?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275013: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:37:32 PM

Stacey is right.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#275014: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:38:07 PM

[up][up]Are you more impressed by a poster or by a statue?

Statues are monuments in a way that posters are not. Don't try to equate the two.

Edited by M84 on Mar 20th 2019 at 11:38:26 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#275015: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:47:46 PM

Statues are monuments in a way that posters are not. Don't try to equate the two.

But posters imply mass production and therefore popularity, and their fragility implies that finding an intact one means it was highly valued by whoever possessed it. No, they aren't monuments in the same way that a statue is, but they still imply a hell of a lot to a historian.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#275016: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:53:23 PM

It's way easy to mass produce a bunch of posters than it is to make a statue, let alone a bunch of statues (even if they are cheaply made ones). So the statues would imply a lot more reverence than a bunch of posters.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#275017: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:54:31 PM

Just to throw a twist in, how likely is it that any of these places where the statues are now will end up being historical sites in and of themselves? Are we really going to have a situation where [insert relevant US town] will be treated the same way we treat, for example, the ruins of an old castle or some such?

I'd say the answer to that is no. We shouldn't value these participation trophies the same way as we would the relics of some historical dictator or some such.

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#275018: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:56:16 PM

[up] Again, no one here is arguing to leave the statues where they are. The question remains if a few should go in a museum (no) or in a set of archives (probably).

Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 20th 2019 at 11:57:03 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#275019: Mar 20th 2019 at 8:58:36 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2019/03/20/day-790/

    Day 790: Nuts 
1/ Trump called Mueller's report illegitimate because he was never elected and complained to reporters that he now has to deal with "somebody writing a report" despite having "won one of the greatest elections of all time." Trump went on to refer to Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein as just "a deputy" who was "appointed," who then "appoint[ed] another man to write a report," rhetorically asking somebody to "explain that, because my voters don't get it, and I don't get it." Trump nominated Rosenstein, who was confirmed by the Republican-controlled Senate in a 94-6 vote. (Talking Points Memo / Roll Call)

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-trashes-sessions-rosenstein-mueller-never-got-a-vote

2/ Trump then called for Robert Mueller's report to be made public, saying "Let it come out, let people see it […] we'll see what happens." He added: "I don't mind" if it's made public and "I look forward to seeing the report." The decision to make Mueller's report public will be left to Attorney General William Barr, and Trump said he has "no idea" when the report will be released. (Reuters / Politico / Bloomberg)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-mueller/trump-says-he-doesnt-mind-if-public-sees-muellers-russia-probe-report-idUSKCN1R1254?il=0

3/ Robert Mueller's team told a federal judge that they're very busy this week because they "face the press of other work" and would like a deadline extension to respond to a request to unseal records in Paul Manafort's criminal case. The special counsel asked the court to give them until April 1 to respond to the request from the Washington Post, which petitioned the court to unseal the Manafort documents related to his breach of plea proceedings, citing "the profound public interest in these proceedings." Mueller's report is expected any day now. (Washington Post / CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/19/politics/robert-muellers-team-says-its-very-busy-this-week/index.html

Here's what we already know about the Mueller report: The investigation has revealed a range of events related to Russian interference and the 2016 election. Six people connected to Trump have been charged and five have been convicted or pleaded guilty. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/20/us/politics/mueller-investigation-people-events.html

4/ Hope Hicks plans to turn over documents to the House Judiciary Committee as part of its investigation into potential obstruction of justice. Rep. Jerry Nadler said the former White House communications director and long-time confidante of Trump will hand over documents from "any personal or work diary, journal or other book containing notes, a record or a description of daily events" about Trump, the Trump campaign, the Trump Organization and the executive office of the President. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/20/politics/hope-hicks-house-democratic-investigation/index.html

Michael Flynn's company submitted several thousand pages of documents to the House Judiciary Committee as part of the panel's investigation of alleged obstruction of justice and other actions by Trump. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/20/flynn-documents-house-judiciary-panel-1228630

The chairman of the House Oversight and Reform Committee accused the Trump administration of engaging in "an unprecedented level of stonewalling." Elijah Cummings said the White House has refused to cooperate with repeated requests from the committee. (Newsweek)

https://www.newsweek.com/elijah-cummings-donald-trump-unprecedented-stonewalling-delay-obstruction-1368974

Day 798: The Trump administration ignored the House Judiciary request for documents. House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler had set a Monday deadline asking for documents related the firing of James Comey, internal discussions about the decision of Jeff Sessions to recuse himself from the Russia probe, details about any talks to dismiss, as well as records about payments Trump made as part of a hush-money scheme to keep his alleged extramarital affairs from going public. (CNN / Politico)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/19/politics/democratic-investigations-white-house-documents/index.html

5/ Trump's $1.5 trillion tax cut will not result in the promised 3% annual growth rate. The White House conceded that the American economy would need additional labor regulation rollbacks, a $1 trillion infrastructure plan, and another round of tax cuts in order to produce the promised 3% average growth rate for the next decade. White House forecasters say that without those additional steps, the growth rate would slow to about 2% a year in 2026 when many of the 2017 tax cuts expire. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/us/politics/trump-tax-cut-economic-forecast.html

poll/ 62% of Americans have confidence in the fairness of Mueller's investigation – with 33% very confident. 37%, however, are not very or not at all confident in a fair investigation. 63% are concerned about the Trump campaign's possible ties to Russia. (Associated Press)

https://apnews.com/331c416d73d74f7c8f2eaf5dfb1b9cdb

poll/ 48% of Americans approve of Mueller's handling of the investigation into Russian interference in the presidential election in 2016, while 37% disapprove. 56% say they consider Russia's efforts to influence the election a serious matter that should be fully investigated, while 38% consider an effort to discredit Trump's presidency. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/20/politics/cnn-poll-impeachment-trump-russia/index.html

    Notables 

Trump designated Brazil as a "major non-NATO ally" after meeting with the country's new far-right president and said he would be open to granting Brazil full NATO membership, even though Brazil doesn't qualify to join the alliance. Trump also remarked that he was "very proud to hear the president use the term 'fake news'." (Associated Press / Reuters)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-brazil-idUSKCN1R01VV

Trump Jr. thinks Brexit would have been on had Theresa May followed his father's advice. It is unclear what expertise Trump Jr. has in British or European politics. (NPR / New York Times)

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/20/705029536/donald-trump-jr-says-u-k-s-prime-minister-should-have-listened-to-his-father

Trump said he plans to leave the tariffs on Chinese goods in place for a "substantial period of time" until he's certain that "China lives by the deal." Trump has levied tariffs on $250 billion of Chinese goods – about half the value of Chinese exports to the U.S. Beijing has retaliated with tariffs on $110 billion of U.S. goods – about 90% of U.S. exports to China. (Wall Street Journal / Bloomberg)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-20/trump-says-tariffs-will-stay-on-until-china-complies-with-a-deal

The Trump administration wants to use $359 million from an unrelated bank settlement to fund the border wall. French bank Societe Generale agreed to pay the U.S government $1.3 billion after admitting that it violated U.S. sanctions on Cuba and Iran for years. It's unclear if the White House can use the money for the wall. (CNBC)

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/20/trump-wants-to-use-a-big-banking-settlement-to-help-build-the-wall.html

A federal judge ruled that Trump's ban on transgender people in the military can not go into effect yet, and that the 2017 court order blocking the ban remains in place. The White House released a memo last week saying that it planned to implement the ban in April because "there is no longer any impediment" to doing so. (Buzz Feed News)

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/dominicholden/trump-transgender-military-ban-still-on-hold-judge

A federal judge temporarily blocked oil and gas drilling on 300,000 acres of federal land in Wyoming, ruling that the Trump administration "did not sufficiently consider climate change" in its assessments of whether to lease federal land for individual projects. (Washington Post / Axios /Reuters)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-drilling-lawsuit/u-s-judge-blocks-drilling-over-climate-change-casting-doubt-on-trump-agenda-idUSKCN1R11YL?

Trump plans to nominate former Delta Air Lines pilot and executive Stephen Dickson to lead the FAA. If confirmed, Dickson will become the first permanent FAA administrator since Obama-appointee Michael Huerta resigned in 2018. (NPR)

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/19/704900992/trump-to-nominate-former-delta-airlines-executive-to-lead-faa

18 states have considered legislation that would require presidential and vice presidential candidates to release their tax returns to appear on the ballot during a primary or general election. Many of the legislatures considering the bills are controlled by Democrats. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/20/trump-could-be-left-off-some-states-ballots-if-these-bills-become-law/

A panel of federal appeals court judges challenged the legal basis for a lawsuit alleging that Trump's profits from the Trump International Hotel violate the Constitution's emoluments clauses. Trump has retained ownership of the hotel while serving as president, which has become a favored lodging and event space for foreign- and state-governments. (New York Times / Reuters)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-emoluments-idUSKCN1R02M4

Kellyanne Conway defended Trump's attacks on her husband after Trump called George Conway "Mr. Kellyanne Conway," a "whack job," "a stone cold LOSER," and a "husband from hell!" George Conway responded: "You. Are. Nuts." Kellyanne, meanwhile, asked: "You think [Trump] should just take that sitting down?" (Politico / NBC News / CNBC / ABC News)

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/19/trump-rips-george-conway-a-total-loser.html

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#275020: Mar 20th 2019 at 9:18:52 PM

You seem to be taking a particularly dim view of historians ability to eventually arrive at something approaching the correct answer.

That's because I've read U.S. history textbooks.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#275021: Mar 20th 2019 at 9:23:17 PM

[up]To be fair, within the context of Lost Cause, the historical consensus is that it's bullshit and that the Civil War was about slavery. The problem is the southern states and other institutions refusing to acknowledge it.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275022: Mar 20th 2019 at 9:23:30 PM

Speaking as a Southerner, I should also state that the danger of these monuments are tremendous. Propaganda like this is insidious and effective despite what many people think.

I grew up fully believing:

  • the Southerners had other reasons than slavery to leave the United States.
  • The Union committed countless war crimes against the South.
  • That General Lee was a Worthy Opponent, donated the land of Arlington National Cemetery (which is just Blatant Lies), was in favor of gradual emancipation (again), and was a Lawful Good paladin who would never hurt his state's citizens (see West Virginia for why this is bullshit).
  • I went to the Dixie Stampede of Dollywood (Dolly Partron's TN amusement park) and my parents bought cute little Confederate hats and flags for myself.
  • Also, the "Slaves were valuable property so they weren't abused."
  • The Confederate Battle Flag is a harmless symbol of Southern heritage and cute.
  • I can't even name the number of General Lee and Confederate soldier or memorial statues I've passed. At least a dozen. The only one my family ever commented on was Nathaniel Bedford Forest and that was because even my family considered the KKK to be terrorists.

I was born in 1980.

(Mind you, I have the caveat my 98 year old Great Aunt owned a non-functioning former plantation—so this is CLOSE history for my family)

This was not a controversial opinion of mine or my family. It took til high school and a Marine teacher to sort me out.

And the scary thing?

I was odd for changing my opinion. My only history class n Kentucky college about the Civil War was a mythological story of Good Versus Good.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 20th 2019 at 9:30:37 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#275023: Mar 20th 2019 at 9:31:07 PM

That's because I've read U.S. history textbooks.

... historians are stupid and incompetent because of separate deliberately biased authors?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#275024: Mar 20th 2019 at 9:35:08 PM

To be fair, within the context of Lost Cause, the historical consensus is that it's bullshit and that the Civil War was about slavery. The problem is the southern states and other institutions refusing to acknowledge it.

I honestly attribute a lot of this to the internet.

There is nothing so effective than bringing up the Constitution of the Confederacy to cite their reasons.

But before the internet, it was a lot murkier for people. I should note that there's plenty of places with Confederate Battle Flags and states rights apologia outside of the South too.

Like some kind of weird rural infection. I've been to Vermont and Ohio's middle and it's almost identical to where I grew up.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 20th 2019 at 9:36:50 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#275025: Mar 20th 2019 at 9:46:24 PM

[up] Oh yeah, then Confederacy is popular among white supremacists both northern and southern. When I was younger, I remember a certain set of kids would drive their truck into school waving the Confederate battle flag. Another would wear one on his person. I lived in the north.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer

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