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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#274176: Mar 12th 2019 at 9:29:45 AM

[up] State ownership of production is a necessary transitional stage in Communist doctrine. Revolution->transition->utopia. No Communist state has ever been established without it.

This sort of Moving the Goalposts is a standard feature of modern-day Communists. Whenever you pin them down on how their ideas don't work, they just wave it aside without explaining how they would do things differently.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 12th 2019 at 12:30:56 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#274177: Mar 12th 2019 at 9:30:53 AM

[up] I feel like we might be getting a bit off topic. Maybe the discussion on Political ideologies would be better suited for the General Politics thread?

Edited by megaeliz on Mar 12th 2019 at 12:31:51 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#274179: Mar 12th 2019 at 9:32:38 AM

I’d be interested to hear y’all’s thoughts on my policy proposal from the last page.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#274180: Mar 12th 2019 at 9:39:07 AM

@wisewillow: I already gave some thoughts, but let's explore details.

  • "guarantee partial ownership of companies by employees"
    I'm unclear on the details of this, and I don't want to go too crazy until I fully understand what it means and how it would be implemented. I'm in favor of diminishing the role of stock traders in determining a company's fortunes, but dismantling this would be quite the complex undertaking. It feels like employee ownership would in some ways discourage labor mobility, which is already a significant problem. That said, some sort of mandatory employee component of directorship (such as votes in board meetings) would be an interesting idea, as would paying a share of dividends (or profits) directly to employees.
  • "Implement strong pro-union/workers’ rights laws"
    We do need stronger unions in this country, and I definitely support the abolition of "Right to Work" and similar anti-union practices. Unions have their own problems, though, as Krugman has pointed out in the past — particularly, the tendency to enshrine white-collar conservative values and to make it difficult to get rid of underperforming workers (or abusive ones, in the case of police unions).
  • "Change the definition of full time employment to less hours, say 30 a week instead of 40"
    This has been successfully implemented in many European countries and I'm definitely curious to see where it would go here.
  • "Implement anti-income inequality taxes such as wealth tax, estate tax, etc."
    Reestablishing estate taxes is an excellent idea. I'm not so much in favor of a "wealth tax", because it might be held as unconstitutional. It's a good idea, but my gut tells me there would be problems if we just seized rich people's money outright.
  • "Cap interest on student loans and create an aggressive loan forgiveness/reduced payment policy"
    I discussed debt forgiveness on the last page of this topic. Capping interest on student loans is a good idea, as would nationalizing the whole apparatus and taking it out of the hands of private banks. Or we could go with government simply paying for basic college education.
  • "Then implement a negative income tax"
    There have been many proposals for negative tax/MBI and I broadly support the idea.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 12th 2019 at 12:45:59 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#274181: Mar 12th 2019 at 9:56:03 AM

I haven't read Marx in his entirety, but I do not believe that his Socialist ideology necessarily involved the outright murder of the bourgeoisie. Indeed, it rather flailed on the actual mechanism for the transition, instead describing an inevitable process in which the proletariat would become fed up with their exploitation and throw a revolution. The mass-murder part was an "innovation" of his devotees.

Marx assumed that the proletariat as a whole would go along with his plan, and didn't really stop to consider "what do we do if the council democracy that I've envisioned votes against Socialism?" Lenin had to grapple with that exact question, and we all know how he answered it. In the process, he discredited classical Marxism by elevating Marxism-Leninism to a religious cult.

Pivoting back to US politics, Sanders' and Ocasio-Cortez' support for expanded social welfare should not be called socialist, and Warren's proposals to break up the businesses likewise don't end up with Amazon and Facebook owned by the federal government. The New Deal and the 1950s in the US weren't socialist either. The reason that we make that association today is, as far as I've read, because European parties have "socialist" in their name but abandoned actual socialism post-Thatcher, and modern American socialists look to European socialists for a model. (And because Republicans like to conflate spending one dollar on the poor with Stalinism, of course.)

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#274182: Mar 12th 2019 at 10:12:32 AM

There's a lot of Socialists who believe that Capitalism is completely incompatible with small s socialism and vice versa. Plenty of capitalists believe that any government regulation or protection of the poor (or the poor being allowed to protect themselves) is a betrayal of Big-C capitalism.

The thing is that none of this is true because economics as religion is stupid.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#274183: Mar 12th 2019 at 10:18:25 AM

“This sort of Moving the Goalposts is a standard feature of modern-day Communists. Whenever you pin them down on how their ideas don't work, they just wave it aside without explaining how they would do things differently.”

Can I get this on a T shirt? Or a banner?

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#274184: Mar 12th 2019 at 10:29:45 AM

State ownership of production is a necessary transitional stage in Communist doctrine. ... No Communist state has ever been established without it.

Modern Socialists are, on the whole, not in favour of repeating the 20th Century's mistakes. Cooperatives could take control of the means of production rather than the State for example. It'd argue that insisting on using only that narrow definition of Communism is more 'moving the goalposts' than acknowledging that modern self-professed communists don't hold those views.


Socialists who believe that Capitalism is completely incompatible with small s socialism and vice versa.

More like they think that Capitalism's failings are too systemic and too great to be fixed with the band-aid of a few socialist elements, and a complete overhaul is needed.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Mar 12th 2019 at 5:31:25 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#274185: Mar 12th 2019 at 10:33:35 AM

I would politely note that if people, including a mod in plainclothes, have noted that it goes off topic....maybe stop?

So when's the Senate vote on the emergency again?

"You can reply to this Message!"
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#274186: Mar 12th 2019 at 10:35:13 AM

[up]Or at least take it somewhere more appropriate.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#274187: Mar 12th 2019 at 10:39:25 AM

The Senate has to vote on the emergency declaration within four days, if my adding capabilities are right.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#274188: Mar 12th 2019 at 10:41:26 AM

What happens if they don't, requirements be damned?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#274189: Mar 12th 2019 at 10:47:59 AM

Then Trump's emergency goes into effect I imagine,since if they DONT vote then its assumed they have must have reached an agreement therefore there was no need for a vote

Least that's someone might spin it

On the other hand,without a vote from congress nothing happens,so nothing could happen

Edited by Ultimatum on Mar 12th 2019 at 5:51:07 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#274190: Mar 12th 2019 at 10:51:59 AM

I think the problem with collectivism boils down to the Prisoner's Dilemma. With each new person you add to the equation, the odds that someone will choose to betray increase.

A good socialist system needs to have checks and balances in place to limit the capacity for a greedy asshole to ruin everything.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#274192: Mar 12th 2019 at 11:14:34 AM

Sgamer: If Mc Connell tries to not hold a vote then Schumer gets to tell him to suck a lemon and holds a vote anyway. This isn't something the Republican leadership gets to wriggle out of.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#274193: Mar 12th 2019 at 11:22:52 AM

I kinda figured, but given things like [up][up], I couldn't help but think it within the realm of possibility.

Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 12th 2019 at 12:23:05 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#274194: Mar 12th 2019 at 11:26:23 AM

I think that Trump's trying to blitz the wall construction. He thinks that if he can get everyone together and moving on it RIGHT NOW, it'll be done by next week and then he can go, "Not Constitutional? WHOOPS, TOO LATE, ALREADY FINISHED. Guess we'll just have to agree that I was right."

He has consistently failed to get permission so now he's going for the "It's better to ask forgiveness" premise.

And he has no f*cking idea how much time and money the project would actually require. He's super convinced that it can be done by the time Congress and the Supreme Court finish telling him no.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 12th 2019 at 12:27:16 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#274195: Mar 12th 2019 at 11:28:20 AM

On the subject of the vote, Trump is basically telling the GOP that the Constitution doesn't matter when voting on the emergency.

And our descent into authoritarianism continues...

Thanks for posting that! In my Global Issues class we have an assignment on the slide into authoritarianism, this will undoubtedly be a perfect example smile

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 12th 2019 at 2:28:30 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#274196: Mar 12th 2019 at 11:31:47 AM

He has consistently failed to get permission so now he's going for the "It's better to ask forgiveness" premise.
That technique only applies if you don't ask at all beforehand. He's more going, "You're not gonna let me? Fuck you, I'm doing it anyway because I always get my way."

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#274197: Mar 12th 2019 at 11:35:47 AM

I was wondering about this package's chances on passing the rest of the process (or rather, if Mc Connell's blocking it from getting a vote could be vetoed)
Sadly, as the Senate Majority Leader, grumpy turtle can stop any bill from being voted on. It might be enough to tank his reelection chances, but given his state, that's not a given, and I am not aware of any other way to get the Senate to vote on election reform.
The bill isn't even socialist; Socialism itself is more about the economy and not directly about voting rights. The bill itself is about points broadly agreed on by everyone on the left side of politics.
Your second sentence is exactly the point; calling something "socialist" isn't about economic stance, it's about "this is too left-wing for the Trump supporters."
Pete Buttigieg is also running for president (D)
I haven't heard of the guy, but I can already imagine what Faux News and President Mighty Whitey are going to start calling him. Not that this is an argument, just that I really don't want to put up with it from them.
It depends on how long Trump wants to play shenanigans.
Uh, forever? I don't see Trump ever not playing shenanigans.
Have the vanished children which were separated at the border from the parents found yet?
Not that I've heard.
That'd be like the US declaring outright that we're WASP-only.
TBH, kinda surprised that Trump and Mitch haven't made that kind of outright statement.
The time will come when there will not be enough jobs for everyone to do. And then an universal basic income (at the very least) will become not just desirable, but necessary.
That time could be now, honestly. Or at the least, I could see it in my lifetime, if we stopped venerating billionaires who rip off their workers.
design a system around turning self interested assholes into productive members of society, and then when they aren't self-interested assholes it's a bonus.
Every attempt to do this has, so far, failed miserably.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#274198: Mar 12th 2019 at 11:39:59 AM

That technique only applies if you don't ask at all beforehand. He's more going, "You're not gonna let me? Fuck you, I'm doing it anyway because I always get my way."

I think it's worth mentioning that this is a really dumb idea on his part, the Supreme Court will already be pressured by the extreme lack of popularity of his emergency and the dubious constitutionality.

So things like this or that time when he was caught on tape saying that he doesn't actually need it, make things even harder for them and thus almost certainly decrease the odds of success.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 12th 2019 at 2:46:06 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#274199: Mar 12th 2019 at 11:45:38 AM

FYI - Trump's people attempted to start building the wall over a butterfly sanctuary during the shutdown.

They made a court injunction against it but the judge ruled against it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#274200: Mar 12th 2019 at 3:02:11 PM

Pence has had his House office removed by Nancy Pelosi.

I'm starting to love her.

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/12/702577175/speaker-pelosi-revokes-mike-pences-house-office-space

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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