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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#274101: Mar 11th 2019 at 1:58:47 PM

Well, plenty of people are still children at 18, and we still let them vote.

I stand with wisewillow on this one: at 16 you're already old enough to get affected by the policies the goverment puts into practice, therefore you should have a say on them.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#274102: Mar 11th 2019 at 1:59:21 PM

I think that we should have a single age when people become an adults for the purposes of everything. Right now, it's rather patchwork. Personally, I think that age should probably be around sixteen.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#274103: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:01:09 PM

Technically, that would apply at 14, 12 and so on as well c.f climate change. With some people that young one might argue that the brain parts involved in decision making aren't developed enough for making such complex decisions, although if memory serves there is a bit of scientific disagreement on this question.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#274104: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:04:11 PM

I liked the idea of a "tiered" system of voting rights someone brought up when discussing this topic earlier. Something like 15 for strictly local (town/city level elections), 16 for County elections, 17 for State-level elections, and 18 for Federal elections. How well that'd work in practice, however, is the trouble - how many kids would just vote the way their parents tell them to?

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#274105: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:04:52 PM

Children not voting has many reasons not to exist.

And which of those reasons wouldn’t also apply to stripping the vote from people over either the retirement age or the average life expectancy age?

That’s they’re dependant on others? That they’re not contributing to society by being part of the workforce? That their brains are not properly able to process the information needed to make an informed vote choice? That they are normally in the care of others who could manipulate their vote? That they are to far removed from being an active member of society with a serious stake in what government does?

There are good reasons to not let children vote, but they also work jsut as well for why we shouldn’t let the very old vote.

how many kids would just vote the way their parents tell them to?

That’s how many adults vote, should their votes not be counted either?

Edited by Silasw on Mar 11th 2019 at 9:05:58 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#274106: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:12:49 PM

Children are also otherwise restricted in what they can do as regards to adults, and offered a large amount of extra legal protections.

It's not a bad argument that until you're in a position to take on all the other responsibilities and restrictions of being an adult, you shouldn't have a direct say in the people that make those laws. Old people have been able to do that.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#274107: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:23:06 PM

The extra legal protection thing is pretty iffy, sure sometimes but it’s also legal to beat a family member if they’re young enough and your child, in many US states it’s legal to have them tortured because of their sexuality.

In the end children are some of the most vulnerable members of society, and we deny them the right to vote themselves protections from other member of society.

Plus we give extra protections to the elderly, social security, Medicare, adult protection services, elder abuse laws, ect... Hell people in assisted living facilities or with careers can still vote, but they’ve had controls put on their life because they’re not capable of being responsible for their own safety.

Like I get the arguments against letting kids vote, I’ve probably lived the best case scenario possible for preparing children to vote, and some of us wouldn’t have been ready at an early age (though I think we’d have been good by 15), hell im sure I can find kids I went to school with who even years after leaving can’t make an informed choice come election time, but all the arguments seem to work just as well for stripping the very old of the vote as well.

Edited by Silasw on Mar 11th 2019 at 9:24:42 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#274108: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:24:34 PM

Stacey Adams is not ruling out a run for President.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/11/politics/stacey-abrams-2020-sxsw/index.html

Well, at the very least, this primary is going to be exciting.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#274109: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:26:34 PM

but all the arguments seem to work just as well for stripping the very old of the vote as well.

... except for the one I literally just made that there are things that children are legally not allowed to do and have never been allowed to do, which makes giving them a say in it particularly odd.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#274110: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:28:10 PM

We set a number of arbitrary age barriers to adulthood largely because it's too difficult to create a foolproof test that would establish some standard of "maturity". Older civilizations had tests like "participate in a hunt" or "kill your first enemy", but we can't really do that these days.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 11th 2019 at 5:35:39 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#274111: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:38:30 PM

Like I get the arguments against letting kids vote, I’ve probably lived the best case scenario possible for preparing children to vote, and some of us wouldn’t have been ready at an early age (though I think we’d have been good by 15), hell im sure I can find kids I went to school with who even years after leaving can’t make an informed choice come election time, but all the arguments seem to work just as well for stripping the very old of the vote as well. Or you know adults in general. When one looks at some of the motives that voters cite and things like "donkey vote" you certainly wonder...

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#274112: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:53:43 PM

... except for the one I literally just made that there are things that children are legally not allowed to do and have never been allowed to do, which makes giving them a say in it particularly odd.

I fail to see a meaningful difference between someone nto having proven themselves able to do something and having proven themselves unable after having previously been able to do it, past performance is not inherently representative of future performance.

If the argument is that people who can’t take on the other responsibilities of being an adult shouldn’t be able to vote that’s a solid one, but it applies both to both people not yet able to take on the responsibilities and people no longer able to take on the responsibilities.

Or you know adults in general.

Sure but we know from experience that limiting the ability of people in general to vote does not end up being done based on ability but instead based on the powerful oppressing the powerless. So as nice as it sounds in theory it’s not something that should ever be done.

[up][up] I mean we could try, one idea is that we introduce such a test as an option for younger people who want to vote, so everyone can vote at 18, but a person under 18 can vote if they pass a specific test that shows they’re ready for the responsibility of voting.

Edited by Silasw on Mar 11th 2019 at 9:55:47 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#274113: Mar 11th 2019 at 2:58:44 PM

An intelligence check is a bad idea. That was how they kept black people from voting back in the day.

Leviticus 19:34
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#274114: Mar 11th 2019 at 3:00:13 PM

With biased tests involving counting the bubbles in a bar of soap as I recall,suddenly my a level history is all coming back to me..

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#274115: Mar 11th 2019 at 3:13:40 PM

Yeah a mandatory test to be able to vote would just be used to take the vote away from people who need it most, an optional one for people who currently can’t vote might work however.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#274116: Mar 11th 2019 at 3:23:31 PM

I would bet money that the tests would be written to disproportionately favor rich and/or middle class white kids.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#274117: Mar 11th 2019 at 3:23:40 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2019/03/11/day-781/

    Day 781: Sanity 
1/ Trump proposed a $4.75 trillion budget, dubbed the "Budget for a Better America." Trump requested an additional $8.6 billion for his border wall, and proposed increasing military spending by 5% to $750 billion while cutting funding for domestic discretionary spending $597 billion to $543 billion – a 9% cut in 2020. The budget calls for a 23% cut in State Department funding, a 15% cut in spending by the USDA, and a 31% cut in the budget for the EPA. The budget for Homeland Security would increase by 7.4%. The budget forecasts a $1.1 trillion deficit in 2019, 2020, and 2021, and a $1 trillion deficit in 2022 with the national debt ballooning to more than $31 trillion in the next decade by 2029. It currently stands at more than $22 trillion. Trump's acting budget chief called the budget a "return to fiscal sanity." (CNN / New York Times / Washington Post / The Guardian / Reuters / NPR / Wall Street Journal / CNBC)

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702171200/trump-seeks-more-border-wall-funding-in-new-budget

Trump's budget projects that the economy will continue to grow at a 3% rate or higher over the next five years – higher than independent outside projections. (CNBC)

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/10/trumps-budget-will-project-3percent-gdp-growth-over-the-next-few-years-defying-consensus.html

2/ Trump claimed that "the Democrats hate Jewish people" during a fundraiser at Mar-a-Lago. He said he didn't understand how anyone could vote for a Democrat and that they've become the "anti-Jewish party." Trump also speculated that he would be at 98% in the polls if he were to run to become the prime minister of Israel. Sarah Huckabee Sanders, meanwhile, refused to say whether Trump believes Democrats hate Jewish people, saying "I think you should ask Democrats." (Axios / The Hill)

https://www.axios.com/trump-rnc-donors-democrats-jewish-people-anti-semitism-94b86cee-d741-4ca8-be3d-4244326b2cb5.html

A Trump 2020 campaign adviser dismissed a question about diversity within the administration by asking "How many black people were in Abraham Lincoln's West Wing?" Katrina Pierson added: "I'm not going to participate in the attempt to make this all about race. It's ridiculous." (The Hill)

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/433410-trump-campaign-adviser-dismisses-white-house-diversity-question-how

Trump tried to persuade Republican donors not a trust a video where he called the CEO of Apple "Tim Apple." Trump told the donors that he actually said "Tim Cook Apple" really fast, but the "Cook" part of the sentence was soft. Later, Trump claimed he intentionally said "Tim/Apple" instead of Tim Cook and Apple "as an easy way to save time and words." Tim Cook changed his Twitter profile to "Tim Apple." (Axios / ABC News / Politico)

https://www.axios.com/trump-rnc-donors-apple-tim-cook-lie-2fd8b004-6fc3-4f81-9eb0-3b92f3264ef1.html

3/ The former owner of a massage parlor tied to a prostitution ring sold Chinese executives access to Trump through her consulting firm, GY US Investments LLC. Li Yang's website claims its "activities for clients" have included "the opportunity to interact with the president, the [American] Minister of Commerce and other political figures." In particular, Yang arranged for a larger group of Chinese business people to attend a paid fundraiser for Trump in New York City at the end of 2017. Yang personally gave $5,400 to Trump's campaign and $23,500 to the Trump Victory political action committee 11 days prior to the Dec. 2, 2017 event. Foreign visitors may attend fundraisers as long as they don't pay their own entry. GY US also claimed it has "arranged taking photos with the President" at Mar-a-Lago and suggested that could set up a "White House and Capitol Hill Dinner." Since 2017, Yang and her relatives have donated more than $42,000 to a Trump political action committee and more than $16,000 to Trump's campaign. (Mother Jones / Miami Herald / CNN / USA Today)

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article227358809.html

Yang also serves as an officer of two groups tied to the Chinese government. She founded a non-profit in Miami that promotes "economic and cultural exchange" between China and the U.S. in coordination with "senior…Chinese leaders" in the United States. Yang has been offering to sell access to the Trump family, the White House, and various GOP power brokers. (Mother Jones)

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/03/the-massage-parlor-owner-peddling-access-to-trump-has-ties-to-chinese-government-linked-groups-cindy-yang/

4/ Nancy Pelosi on impeaching Trump: "He's just not worth it." The Speaker of the House called Trump unfit to be president – "ethically," "intellectually" and "curiosity-wise" — but she is "not for impeachment. […] Impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there's something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don't think we should go down that path, because it divides the country. And he's just not worth it. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/magazine/wp/2019/03/11/feature/nancy-pelosi-on-impeaching-president-trump-hes-just-not-worth-it/

    Notables 
Trump will "make his decision" on whether to pardon Paul Manafort "when he's ready," Sarah Huckabee Sanders said. In November, Trump said that a pardon for Manafort "was never discussed," but added that he "wouldn't take it off the table," rhetorically asking: "Why would I take it off the table?" The comment from Sanders came during the first official White House press briefing in six weeks. (CNBC)

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/11/white-house-trump-will-decide-when-hes-ready-on-manafort-pardon.html

The White House rejected a House Oversight Committee request to interview former deputy counsel Stefan Passantino, who represented Trump to federal ethics officials looking into hush money payments made to Stormy Daniels in 2016. (Axios)

https://www.axios.com/white-house-rejects-elijah-cummings-oversight-trump-hush-money-3609b50c-0e56-4a14-97ab-bb9685b7336d.html

House Intelligence chairman Adam Schiff said Robert Mueller was making a "mistake" by not demanding that Trump testify as part of his investigation, "because probably the best way to get the truth would be to put the president under oath." (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/schiff-says-its-a-mistake-for-mueller-not-to-interview-trump/2019/03/10/3ab5a344-4359-11e9-8aab-95b8d80a1e4f_story.html

Schiff claimed Erik Prince lied during testimony about a 2016 meeting with foreign nationals at Trump Tower. Prince is the former head of Blackwater, the brother of Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, and an informal adviser to the 2016 Trump campaign. He told Al Jazeera's Mehdi Hasan that he informed the House Intelligence Committee during his testimony in November 2017 about a meeting at Trump Tower with Trump Jr., UAE emissary George Nader, and Israeli social media manipulation specialist Joel Zamel — but none of that is in the transcript from his testimony. (Axios / Al Jazeera)

https://www.axios.com/adam-schiff-erik-prince-lying-2016-trump-tower-meeting-77c205fc-cd82-46c8-9cd0-576b107ee13d.html

New video footage from the Venezuelan border shows an anti-government protester setting fire to a convoy of humanitarian aid last month, despite claims by Mike Pence and the State Department that President Nicolas Maduro had ordered the trucks burned. The Colombian government released partial footage from the incident and attempted to blame Maduro, but newly released footage revealed that a member of the opposition threw a Molotov cocktail at the convoy, triggering the blaze. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/10/world/americas/venezuela-aid-fire-video.html

Milwaukee will host the 2020 Democratic National Convention – a key Midwestern battleground state that Democrats lost for the first time in three decades in 2016. (Milwaukee Journal Sentinel / New York Times)

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/11/dnc-milwaukee-picked-host-2020-democratic-national-convention/2836684002/

Betsy DeVos illegally delayed implementing a rule that required states to address racial disparities in special education programs. DeVos put off implementing the regulation for two years, which will now take effect immediately after a judge ruled that the was delay "arbitrary and capricious." (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/us/politics/betsy-devos-special-education.html

🏌️‍♂️ Trump was named the winner of his own golf club-championship despite not playing in the tournament. A man named Ted Virtue initially won the 2018 Trump International club championship title. Trump, however, challenged Virtue to a nine-hole winner-takes-the-title challenge. Trump won, then offered to be co-champions with Virtue. (Golf)

https://www.golf.com/news/2019/03/10/president-trump-club-championship-did-not-enter/

Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 11th 2019 at 4:27:35 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#274118: Mar 11th 2019 at 3:25:23 PM

Also, the assumption is smart people would vote to help others versus their own interests.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SeptimusHeap MOD from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#274119: Mar 11th 2019 at 3:25:31 PM

The voting age discussion was taking the thread over a bit, so I've made a thread for dedicated discussion and two questions to kick it off.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#274120: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:12:26 PM

And just to change the topic, with regards to criticising NAFTA, I guess that depends on what the specific criticisms were. There were plenty of aspects of NAFTA that were less than perfect- the populist line was always that NAFTA, as a regional trade agreement, should never have been negotiated at all (until Trump negotiated one himself).

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#274121: Mar 11th 2019 at 5:57:06 PM

Elizabeth Warren @ewarren Curious why I think FB has too much power? Let's start with their ability to shut down a debate over whether FB has too much power. Thanks for restoring my posts. But I want a social media marketplace that isn't dominated by a single censor. #Break Up Big Tech

I'm not sure I agree with her about breaking up big tech. However, I think she is right about FB having too much power to impact the discourse in ways like this (and it effects both left and right sides of things).

Edited by Soban on Mar 11th 2019 at 8:59:31 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#274122: Mar 11th 2019 at 6:00:37 PM

The problem, of course, is that social media gets so powerful because people want to talk on the fewest places possible to communicate with as many people as possible.

Break it up and it's a matter of time before people move onto another one.

And so long as they're a private entity they're allowed to remove whatever the hell they want from their own site.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#274124: Mar 11th 2019 at 8:50:35 PM

Nancy Pelosi on impeaching Trump: "He's just not worth it." The Speaker of the House called Trump unfit to be president – "ethically," "intellectually" and "curiosity-wise" — but she is "not for impeachment. […] Impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there's something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don't think we should go down that path, because it divides the country. And he's just not worth it.
Would it be accurate to interpret that as "I'm waiting to see if Mueller's probe actually gives us enough evidence to incriminate Trump so severely that it's more than worthwhile to at least make a symbolic attempt at impeachment that would be almost certainly dead-on-arrival in the Senate"?

House Intelligence chairman Adam Schiff said Robert Mueller was making a "mistake" by not demanding that Trump testify as part of his investigation, "because probably the best way to get the truth would be to put the president under oath."
Does his argument have weight?

Trump was named the winner of his own golf club-championship despite not playing in the tournament. A man named Ted Virtue initially won the 2018 Trump International club championship title. Trump, however, challenged Virtue to a nine-hole winner-takes-the-title challenge. Trump won, then offered to be co-champions with Virtue.
Yeesh, it's not enough that the championship is more or less named after him, he won't let the legitimate victor enjoy being the champion and instead effectively force him to share it with himself for no reason other than masturbatory self-glorification.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#274125: Mar 11th 2019 at 9:42:59 PM

Would it be accurate to interpret that as "I'm waiting to see if Mueller's probe actually gives us enough evidence to incriminate Trump so severely that it's more than worthwhile to at least make a symbolic attempt at impeachment that would be almost certainly dead-on-arrival in the Senate"?

I think it's more "Impeachment isn't worth attempting unless it can actually accomplish something", which would mean she's straight up not going to try unless dems take the senate or republicans start turning on Trump

Does his argument have weight?

Not really. Trump is almost guaranteed to lie. Which does have it's uses, but would still make thing worse politically


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