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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Bernie's appeal isn't his old white male cisness.
That's arguably Joe Biden's.
It's the fact he's a socialist in a country that still tries to treat it as a dirty word and many-many young people really hate the economy as is so they've thrown behind him.
Basically, broke college educated people like Bernie.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 10th 2019 at 3:10:39 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Have we not been over this multiple times?
Bernie and his ilk are far closer to social democrats than socialists. Like most people on the left in America, he and people like him get called "socialists" because anything with a safety net is socialist to the U.S. right, except Sanders and those in his tent take that seriously and actually consider themselves socialist.
It would be very funny if it weren't so sad.
"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."To be fair to Sanders it's more than possible that he is an actual socialist and supports Social Democracy as a form of pragmatic reformism, for all his flaws I don't think he's foolish enough to seriously run on worker ownership of the means of production.
But yes, his policies are absolutely bog-standard social democracy. Which to be even fairer to Sanders, is radical by American standards.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangMaybe is weird to say it in the American context, but being at the left of someone (see smarter democrats) don't makes you better than them.
Watch me destroying my countryYou just have to look at Trump being put into office to see that a huge swath of US voters DO have problems with minorities and women.
Does that make it right? Hell no, but at this point we just need damage control because we are loosing our rights by the day any way. :/
Edited by Imca on Mar 9th 2019 at 9:04:55 AM
Susan B. Anthony had some unfortunate words about the fact that racist and sexist white men would still vote for a black man under the right circumstances while actively resisting a woman to the bitter end.
I don't believe that because I believe Hillary won save for shenanigans. We need to fight those shenanigans rather than worry about "electability."
But the sentiment is there with too many people who feel like it was because of Hillary's sex (when any single one of a hundred tiny things could have swung the election even with all the shenanigans).
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 10th 2019 at 3:14:19 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.I don't believe Hillary's gender had a huge impact on her voter popularity. Hillary was a person who the Right in general has been demonizing for a very long time.
Leviticus 19:34Does that make it right? Hell no, but at this point we just need damage control because we are loosing our rights by the day any way. :/
I couldn't disagree more, Trump barely won and even if he hadn't that wouldn't be a reason to abandon our principles on a more diverse nation. Playing it safe is both unnecessary and not actually all that safe.
I would sympathize with how you're feeling but it's just incorrect.
I don't believe that because I believe Hillary won save for shenanigans. We need to fight those shenanigans rather than worry about "electability."
But the sentiment is there with too many people who feel like it was because of Hillary's sex (when any single one of a hundred tiny things could have swung the election even with all the shenanigans).
Well said
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But The Right demonized her for her gender in first place.
Thought, yeah. It was a aggregate of factors.
Watch me destroying my countryThought, yeah. It was a aggregate of factors.
Yeah, the entire reason the Right started their hate boner for her was that Clinton refused to be the normal passive First Lady and actively pursued her ambition.
Heck, people-in-general react with outrage to women desiring power
the fact that the people in question were Social Conservatives who defend traditional hierarchy almost certainly compounded that outrage.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 10th 2019 at 11:40:52 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThis reminds me of an article from a few days ago that essentially stated that what "Electability" means to pundits/think tanks/media is different from what it means to the average Democratic voter: Democratic Voters Want “Electability,” But That Doesn’t Mean They Want A Centrist For President.
“Honestly,” a stranger agreed. “That’s all I care about.”
“They have to be as ruthless as he is,” a third woman said.
But the first woman disagreed. “Not even ruthless — just smart. That’s all I want.”
In some circles, the word “electable” has become a proxy for moderate — a political centrist whose policies appeal to swing voters in states Trump won in 2016. Sen. Amy Klobuchar has electability, some say, because she won reelection by broad margins in Minnesota, a state where Trump barely lost in 2016. Allies of Joe Biden, with his history of bipartisanship and working-class centrism, claim electability is his strongest case for the Democratic nomination.
Far from tying electability to centrism or moderation, voters said they cared about rhetoric, personality, energy, and momentum when deciding if a candidate could win. Many others said they were looking primarily for someone who spoke specifically to the concerns of working-class people. Some wanted a fighter who could parry Trump’s rhetoric. Just two said they were looking for a political moderate.
Their answers illustrate a conundrum for Democratic candidates in 2020. What is seemingly a broad voter consensus — that Democratic voters are searching for electability — is, in reality, a much more varied desire.
What voters are actually saying also undercuts a narrative about the choices Democrats will make in the 2020 primaries. While polls have forced Democrats to reckon with choices between candidates who agree with them on issues and those who might beat Trump, voters overwhelmingly said they saw little conflict between the issues they cared about, like Medicare for All and income inequality, and a candidate’s electability.
Jonathan Lamb, a meteorologist in West Ashley, South Carolina, attended an event for Sen. Kamala Harris in February to “get a feel for whether she’s electable — though I don’t know how you quantify that.”
“I put a lot of weight into how they speak,” he said. He was passionate about lots of “political hot potatoes,” like gun control and reproductive rights, but in the end, his decision would come down to one thing: “I’m just trying to imagine this person debating Donald Trump, and how they would hold up.”
Voters in New Hampshire and South Carolina often spoke of “broad appeal” too — something many said was the most important thing for a candidate to have in order to beat Trump. But they didn’t see appeal as Third Way envisioned it — as a choice between policy directions.
Many voters looking to find a candidate with “broad appeal” said they were looking at the way candidates spoke — hoping to find someone who “phrased things in a mainstream way,” as one voter said, or who “emphasized the working people.” Others said they were looking at who appealed widely by speaking to the concerns of racial minorities; one said that to him, “broad appeal” meant speaking better to white women.
But in interviews, most Democratic voters rejected the idea that the two choices were at odds. Progressives, especially, said they thought that being on the far left edge of issues would be a boost against Trump, rather than a hindrance. Some said they thought progressive policies themselves were the missing piece to a candidate who had “broad appeal.”
“I’m not interested in a moderate who will back down. I think that’s the mistake we made in 2016.”
Electability is “someone who’s not afraid to be a Democrat,” said Heather Levine, a teacher in North Charleston, South Carolina, who attended a Harris rally in February. “I’m not interested in a moderate who will back down. I think that’s the mistake we made in 2016. We didn’t get that excitement going. It needs to be about policy.”
Few Democrats said they saw a reason to compromise on the issues that were important to them, like health care — even as they sought, first and foremost, to find someone who could win the next election.
Austin Atkinson, a sports agent in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina, said he didn’t need a candidate who agreed with him on many issues. A lifelong Republican with little love for Trump, he’d come to an event for Harris in a South Carolina gymnasium to judge the “energy” around Harris’s campaign. Could Harris beat Trump? “That’s why I’m here,” he said, “to see.”
It didn’t bother him that Harris, who supports progressive policies like Medicare for All and the Green New Deal, was far to the left of him on many issues.
“I just need someone who will stick to their guns and represent the people that elected them and not cater to special interests,” Atkinson said.
Edited by Parable on Mar 10th 2019 at 9:00:31 AM
HRC is the odd example of a person who started out with more conservative rightwing values in her youth but then outgrew them.
TBH though, I can relate. I used to have a lot more lolbertarian views when I was a teenager. Then I grew up.
Edited by M84 on Mar 11th 2019 at 12:14:11 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedWhat makes that darkly amusing is that it means they're perfectly willing to hate Nixon for his crimes and hate Clinton for helping expose those crimes.
It reminds me of that Roman dictator Sulla who was hunting one of his internal enemies and a slave turned him in. Sulla thanked the slave for his service and then killed him for betraying his master.
Even back then the Good Ol' Boys Club stuck together.
Edited by Parable on Mar 10th 2019 at 9:15:31 AM
Oh, just to prove again that Trump could strangle a baby in Time Square and get away with it. He admits he talked with Cohen about pardoning him.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.![]()
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It’s far more common than you’d think. Getting exposed to more people and ideas has a powerful, if gradual effect.
I voted for John Mc Cain in 2008 at the age of 18, on purpose (I think; I don’t 100% remember).
I gradually shifted left during and after college, I volunteered for Bernie Sanders in 2016, at 26, and I’ve moved further left since then.
Edited by wisewillow on Mar 10th 2019 at 1:24:07 PM
I can't speak for everyone here but I think a lot of people aren't really raised with left-wing values but gradually come to accept them more as they become more educated, or have life experiences that challenge those beliefs. I used to have some very misogynistic and transphobic views and was actively hostile to feminism when I was a teenager, but that's not the case anymore.
Edited by Draghinazzo on Mar 10th 2019 at 1:30:58 PM
x3 You mean he 'admits' to it, because if that's the truth then Cohen again lied to Congress, would again be tried for it, and would discredit all of Cohen's testimony (at least in the eyes of the Right). I (right now) believe Cohen (who swears he never directly asked Trump for a Pardon) over Trump.
Edited by DingoWalley1 on Mar 10th 2019 at 1:30:32 PM
In the West, you mean.
This is the US politics forum, so the USA-centrism is Ok. But applying this idea to the entire world? Dear God, you realize how weird it sounds to people in Left wing countries.
Or that is more than possibly have bigotry inside Leftist thought. People being raised upon left wing values...that are still pretty bigoted.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Mar 10th 2019 at 1:30:35 PM
Watch me destroying my country

It seems more like just an acknowledgement of the fact that Sanders and Biden are ahead in the polls right now.