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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#273951: Mar 9th 2019 at 7:35:14 PM

It seems more like just an acknowledgement of the fact that Sanders and Biden are ahead in the polls right now.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273952: Mar 9th 2019 at 7:36:06 PM

Bernie's appeal isn't his old white male cisness.

That's arguably Joe Biden's.

It's the fact he's a socialist in a country that still tries to treat it as a dirty word and many-many young people really hate the economy as is so they've thrown behind him.

Basically, broke college educated people like Bernie.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 10th 2019 at 3:10:39 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#273953: Mar 9th 2019 at 7:57:33 PM

[up] Have we not been over this multiple times?

Bernie and his ilk are far closer to social democrats than socialists. Like most people on the left in America, he and people like him get called "socialists" because anything with a safety net is socialist to the U.S. right, except Sanders and those in his tent take that seriously and actually consider themselves socialist.

It would be very funny if it weren't so sad.

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273954: Mar 9th 2019 at 8:08:40 PM

To be fair to Sanders it's more than possible that he is an actual socialist and supports Social Democracy as a form of pragmatic reformism, for all his flaws I don't think he's foolish enough to seriously run on worker ownership of the means of production.

But yes, his policies are absolutely bog-standard social democracy. Which to be even fairer to Sanders, is radical by American standards.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#273955: Mar 9th 2019 at 8:16:36 PM

Maybe is weird to say it in the American context, but being at the left of someone (see smarter democrats) don't makes you better than them.

Watch me destroying my country
Imca (Veteran)
#273956: Mar 9th 2019 at 9:04:40 PM

My problem with electability arguments is that they're pretty much universally used against minorities and women

You just have to look at Trump being put into office to see that a huge swath of US voters DO have problems with minorities and women.

Does that make it right? Hell no, but at this point we just need damage control because we are loosing our rights by the day any way. :/

Edited by Imca on Mar 9th 2019 at 9:04:55 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273957: Mar 10th 2019 at 3:12:56 AM

Susan B. Anthony had some unfortunate words about the fact that racist and sexist white men would still vote for a black man under the right circumstances while actively resisting a woman to the bitter end.

I don't believe that because I believe Hillary won save for shenanigans. We need to fight those shenanigans rather than worry about "electability."

But the sentiment is there with too many people who feel like it was because of Hillary's sex (when any single one of a hundred tiny things could have swung the election even with all the shenanigans).

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 10th 2019 at 3:14:19 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#273958: Mar 10th 2019 at 7:44:52 AM

I don't believe Hillary's gender had a huge impact on her voter popularity. Hillary was a person who the Right in general has been demonizing for a very long time.

Leviticus 19:34
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273959: Mar 10th 2019 at 7:50:04 AM

You just have to look at Trump being put into office to see that a huge swath of US voters DO have problems with minorities and women.

Does that make it right? Hell no, but at this point we just need damage control because we are loosing our rights by the day any way. :/

I couldn't disagree more, Trump barely won and even if he hadn't that wouldn't be a reason to abandon our principles on a more diverse nation. Playing it safe is both unnecessary and not actually all that safe.

I would sympathize with how you're feeling but it's just incorrect.

Susan B. Anthony had some unfortunate words about the fact that racist and sexist white men would still vote for a black man under the right circumstances while actively resisting a woman to the bitter end.

I don't believe that because I believe Hillary won save for shenanigans. We need to fight those shenanigans rather than worry about "electability."

But the sentiment is there with too many people who feel like it was because of Hillary's sex (when any single one of a hundred tiny things could have swung the election even with all the shenanigans).

Well said [tup]

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#273960: Mar 10th 2019 at 8:33:38 AM

[up][up] But The Right demonized her for her gender in first place.

Thought, yeah. It was a aggregate of factors.

Watch me destroying my country
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273961: Mar 10th 2019 at 8:39:39 AM

But The Right demonized her for her gender in first place.

Thought, yeah. It was a aggregate of factors.

Yeah, the entire reason the Right started their hate boner for her was that Clinton refused to be the normal passive First Lady and actively pursued her ambition.

Heck, people-in-general react with outrage to women desiring power the fact that the people in question were Social Conservatives who defend traditional hierarchy almost certainly compounded that outrage.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 10th 2019 at 11:40:52 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#273962: Mar 10th 2019 at 8:50:32 AM

The Right has hated her ever since she took part in the Nixon investigation.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#273963: Mar 10th 2019 at 8:59:17 AM

This reminds me of an article from a few days ago that essentially stated that what "Electability" means to pundits/think tanks/media is different from what it means to the average Democratic voter: Democratic Voters Want “Electability,” But That Doesn’t Mean They Want A Centrist For President.

“They’re all good — all of the Democrats,” one woman said. “The question is, who’s going to be able to go up against Trump? Take all his bullshit and throw it back to at him.”

“Honestly,” a stranger agreed. “That’s all I care about.”

“They have to be as ruthless as he is,” a third woman said.

But the first woman disagreed. “Not even ruthless — just smart. That’s all I want.”

In past presidential elections, Democrats sought out candidates who shared their values and priorities. But this time, in the shadow of President Donald Trump, polls show many Democratic voters are prioritizing one thing: electability.

In some circles, the word “electable” has become a proxy for moderate — a political centrist whose policies appeal to swing voters in states Trump won in 2016. Sen. Amy Klobuchar has electability, some say, because she won reelection by broad margins in Minnesota, a state where Trump barely lost in 2016. Allies of Joe Biden, with his history of bipartisanship and working-class centrism, claim electability is his strongest case for the Democratic nomination.

But the vast majority of Democratic voters aren’t thinking about electability in terms of ideology, geography, or electoral margin, according to interviews with more than 50 Democratic voters in early primary states.

Far from tying electability to centrism or moderation, voters said they cared about rhetoric, personality, energy, and momentum when deciding if a candidate could win. Many others said they were looking primarily for someone who spoke specifically to the concerns of working-class people. Some wanted a fighter who could parry Trump’s rhetoric. Just two said they were looking for a political moderate.

Their answers illustrate a conundrum for Democratic candidates in 2020. What is seemingly a broad voter consensus — that Democratic voters are searching for electability — is, in reality, a much more varied desire.

What voters are actually saying also undercuts a narrative about the choices Democrats will make in the 2020 primaries. While polls have forced Democrats to reckon with choices between candidates who agree with them on issues and those who might beat Trump, voters overwhelmingly said they saw little conflict between the issues they cared about, like Medicare for All and income inequality, and a candidate’s electability.

Jonathan Lamb, a meteorologist in West Ashley, South Carolina, attended an event for Sen. Kamala Harris in February to “get a feel for whether she’s electable — though I don’t know how you quantify that.”

“I put a lot of weight into how they speak,” he said. He was passionate about lots of “political hot potatoes,” like gun control and reproductive rights, but in the end, his decision would come down to one thing: “I’m just trying to imagine this person debating Donald Trump, and how they would hold up.”

On the eve of the 2018 midterms, the center-left think tank Third Way, which has opposed many far-left policies, posed a question for Democrats and independents in battleground districts across the country. To win future elections, would they want to see the Democratic Party “move to the left to generate enthusiasm” or “appeal to a broad range of voters, including people who may have voted for Donald Trump in 2016”? Seventy percent of respondents said they wanted the party to seek broad appeal instead of move to the left; the think tank touted it as evidence of support for their politics.

Voters in New Hampshire and South Carolina often spoke of “broad appeal” too — something many said was the most important thing for a candidate to have in order to beat Trump. But they didn’t see appeal as Third Way envisioned it — as a choice between policy directions.

Many voters looking to find a candidate with “broad appeal” said they were looking at the way candidates spoke — hoping to find someone who “phrased things in a mainstream way,” as one voter said, or who “emphasized the working people.” Others said they were looking at who appealed widely by speaking to the concerns of racial minorities; one said that to him, “broad appeal” meant speaking better to white women.

Some pollsters have set up Democrats for a conflict between prioritizing the issues they care about and doing whatever they can to beat Trump. Monmouth, in February, asked whether Democrats would prefer “a Democrat you agree with on most issues but would have a hard time beating Donald Trump” to one who they did not agree with but could more easily defeat Trump. Most picked the Democrat who would beat Trump more easily.

But in interviews, most Democratic voters rejected the idea that the two choices were at odds. Progressives, especially, said they thought that being on the far left edge of issues would be a boost against Trump, rather than a hindrance. Some said they thought progressive policies themselves were the missing piece to a candidate who had “broad appeal.”

“I’m not interested in a moderate who will back down. I think that’s the mistake we made in 2016.”

Electability is “someone who’s not afraid to be a Democrat,” said Heather Levine, a teacher in North Charleston, South Carolina, who attended a Harris rally in February. “I’m not interested in a moderate who will back down. I think that’s the mistake we made in 2016. We didn’t get that excitement going. It needs to be about policy.”

Few Democrats said they saw a reason to compromise on the issues that were important to them, like health care — even as they sought, first and foremost, to find someone who could win the next election.

Austin Atkinson, a sports agent in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina, said he didn’t need a candidate who agreed with him on many issues. A lifelong Republican with little love for Trump, he’d come to an event for Harris in a South Carolina gymnasium to judge the “energy” around Harris’s campaign. Could Harris beat Trump? “That’s why I’m here,” he said, “to see.”

It didn’t bother him that Harris, who supports progressive policies like Medicare for All and the Green New Deal, was far to the left of him on many issues.

“I just need someone who will stick to their guns and represent the people that elected them and not cater to special interests,” Atkinson said.

Edited by Parable on Mar 10th 2019 at 9:00:31 AM

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#273964: Mar 10th 2019 at 9:00:50 AM

>The Right has hated her ever since she took part in the Nixon investigation.

So they don't like someone who has essentially never been on their side in her entire public life? I'm completely shocked by this, I never would have expected that. /s

Edited by Soban on Mar 10th 2019 at 12:01:11 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#273965: Mar 10th 2019 at 9:05:28 AM

[up]Um, she used to be a Goldwater Girl. She used to be on their side.

Last time I checked, Barry Goldwater was pretty rightwing.

Edited by M84 on Mar 11th 2019 at 12:06:38 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Blueeyedrat Since: Oct, 2010
#273966: Mar 10th 2019 at 9:09:51 AM

[up] And IIRC, the "Goldwater girl" quote came when she was 17, and most of her political views developed later on when she was in college.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273967: Mar 10th 2019 at 9:10:10 AM

[up][up]When she was a teenager, the Right started collectively knowing about her long after that.

Edit: Damn [nja]

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 10th 2019 at 12:10:31 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#273968: Mar 10th 2019 at 9:13:35 AM

HRC is the odd example of a person who started out with more conservative rightwing values in her youth but then outgrew them.

TBH though, I can relate. I used to have a lot more lolbertarian views when I was a teenager. Then I grew up.

Edited by M84 on Mar 11th 2019 at 12:14:11 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#273969: Mar 10th 2019 at 9:13:42 AM

What makes that darkly amusing is that it means they're perfectly willing to hate Nixon for his crimes and hate Clinton for helping expose those crimes.

It reminds me of that Roman dictator Sulla who was hunting one of his internal enemies and a slave turned him in. Sulla thanked the slave for his service and then killed him for betraying his master.

Even back then the Good Ol' Boys Club stuck together.

Edited by Parable on Mar 10th 2019 at 9:15:31 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273970: Mar 10th 2019 at 10:10:05 AM

Oh, just to prove again that Trump could strangle a baby in Time Square and get away with it. He admits he talked with Cohen about pardoning him.

https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/watch/trump-s-latest-admission-he-had-an-explicit-discussion-with-cohen-about-a-pardon-1454789699652

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#273971: Mar 10th 2019 at 10:22:29 AM

[up][up][up]

the odd example of a person who started out with more conservative rightwing values in her youth but then outgrew them.

It’s far more common than you’d think. Getting exposed to more people and ideas has a powerful, if gradual effect.

I voted for John Mc Cain in 2008 at the age of 18, on purpose (I think; I don’t 100% remember).

I gradually shifted left during and after college, I volunteered for Bernie Sanders in 2016, at 26, and I’ve moved further left since then.

Edited by wisewillow on Mar 10th 2019 at 1:24:07 PM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#273972: Mar 10th 2019 at 10:29:14 AM

I can't speak for everyone here but I think a lot of people aren't really raised with left-wing values but gradually come to accept them more as they become more educated, or have life experiences that challenge those beliefs. I used to have some very misogynistic and transphobic views and was actively hostile to feminism when I was a teenager, but that's not the case anymore.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Mar 10th 2019 at 1:30:58 PM

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#273973: Mar 10th 2019 at 10:30:00 AM

[up]x3 You mean he 'admits' to it, because if that's the truth then Cohen again lied to Congress, would again be tried for it, and would discredit all of Cohen's testimony (at least in the eyes of the Right). I (right now) believe Cohen (who swears he never directly asked Trump for a Pardon) over Trump.

Edited by DingoWalley1 on Mar 10th 2019 at 1:30:32 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273974: Mar 10th 2019 at 10:43:25 AM

That strikes me as far far too complicated for Trump to have come up with.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#273975: Mar 10th 2019 at 11:29:29 AM

I can't speak for everyone here but I think a lot of people aren't really raised with left-wing values but gradually come to accept them more as they become more educated, or have life experiences that challenge those beliefs. I used to have some very misogynistic and transphobic views and was actively hostile to feminism when I was a teenager, but that's not the case anymore.

In the West, you mean.

This is the US politics forum, so the USA-centrism is Ok. But applying this idea to the entire world? Dear God, you realize how weird it sounds to people in Left wing countries.

Or that is more than possibly have bigotry inside Leftist thought. People being raised upon left wing values...that are still pretty bigoted.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Mar 10th 2019 at 1:30:35 PM

Watch me destroying my country

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