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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#273901: Mar 9th 2019 at 10:05:50 AM

[up]x3 [awesome][tup]

Edited by HailMuffins on Mar 9th 2019 at 3:06:12 PM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#273902: Mar 9th 2019 at 10:07:36 AM

A toast to Flowers and a pox on Yang.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#273903: Mar 9th 2019 at 10:45:22 AM

If drone strikes cause more civilian casualties per strike than conventional airstrikes (something I would like to see a link for) then the problem isnt inherent to the technology, it would be the process and policies under which they are used that are at fault. There isnt anything about a remotely controlled drone that would make it any more or less dangerous than an aircraft firing a similar sized missile.

The CIA is supposed to be a branch of the intelligence community, conducting secret operations to collect information on our enemies. As such, they are inherently less accountable than the operational branches of the military are. When we give the CIA black ops authority, problems tend to occur.

Edited by DeMarquis on Mar 9th 2019 at 1:47:30 PM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273904: Mar 9th 2019 at 10:45:59 AM

Looks like Clark was a fly and Flowers was a venus flytrap.

ASAB: All Sponsors Are Bad.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#273905: Mar 9th 2019 at 10:57:25 AM

[up] Venus pun intended, given the International Women's Day angle?

[down] Nice, I missed that one.

Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 9th 2019 at 12:20:46 PM

RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273906: Mar 9th 2019 at 11:13:59 AM

And flowers.

ASAB: All Sponsors Are Bad.
Imca (Veteran)
#273907: Mar 9th 2019 at 1:02:42 PM

The numbers just flat out say your position is wrong, archon. For a variety of reasons but the simple fact is that drone strike attacks have disproportionate high casualties and unpopularity in foreign countries.

Its a result of CIA operating procedure specifically, drones operated by the Airfroce cause less collateral damage then maned aircraft also operated by the Airforce as a result of better optics, and in general carrying a very precise weapons load out.

Its when you throw CIA drones in that the drone strikes cause such high casualties because the CIA just doesn't give a fuck.

So to be honest, even as some one who fully supports drone attacks, and thinks there a great idea because there a more precise weapon which doesn't endanger any military personnel.... I have to agree that handing them to the CIA was a very bad idea.

The numbers just flat out say your position is wrong, archon. For a variety of reasons but the simple fact is that drone strike attacks have disproportionate high casualties and unpopularity in foreign countries.

Not even that, Armed drones have been a weapon under the military's arsenal since as far back as Vietnam (successful usage), or even WWII depending on definition (Deployed but none of them really worked in any way that could be called successful)

About the only thing that has changed is Hollywood has given people an irrational fear of robots in the last couple decades.

Edited by Imca on Mar 9th 2019 at 1:04:38 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273908: Mar 9th 2019 at 1:08:28 PM

I keep hearing people say they think the objection to drones is they're robots. I've never met a critic who believed that versus their objections being how they're used.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Imca (Veteran)
#273909: Mar 9th 2019 at 1:10:57 PM

When those objections are demonstratively false you have to accept that they are either idiots, or there objection is actually something else.

Edit: Honestly this is something that can be applied to a lot of republican things too. ._.;

Edited by Imca on Mar 9th 2019 at 1:11:44 AM

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#273910: Mar 9th 2019 at 1:11:19 PM

There's no problem with drone strikes, it's a problem with the CIA not following the military's rules of engagement.

If they have a problem with the CIA bombing weddings then they need to say that and not pretend that drones are inherently more dangerous than an F-16.

Edited by LeGarcon on Mar 9th 2019 at 4:12:07 AM

Oh really when?
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#273911: Mar 9th 2019 at 1:15:35 PM

@imca: To be fair, the fear of robots isn't anything new-in fact, it's much older than Hollywood. The codifier for sci-fi is Frankenstein, after all, so A.I. Is a Crapshoot has generally been the norm (in the west, at least). Public discourse on robotics has been tainted considerably by this, as any advancement in A.I.s is met with "wow, that's creepy".

Benevolent A.I.s are comparatively recent, and largely come from backlash/tiring of A.I. Is a Crapshoot stories. For example, Lucas said he put two good robots in Star Wars (R2 and C 3 PO) because robots were always bad guys in movies. Same goes for Aasimov before him.

Now a days, I'd actually say A.I. Is a Crapshoot is an Undead Horse Trope. It's used, but robots are almost never Always Chaotic Evil. Even The Terminator includes benevolent robots.

[up][up][up]I have heard criticisms along those lines, actually. Claims include that drones make the strikes too easy and therefore common, or that drones dehumanize the targets somehow (IE "they make warfare into a sick video game") and the like. These are usually poor arguments, though.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Mar 9th 2019 at 1:18:12 AM

Leviticus 19:34
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#273912: Mar 9th 2019 at 1:18:42 PM

Yeah, I'm also going to say that this sounds more like a CIA problem than a drone problem.

Like. I feel like people think that if you took the drones away, the CIA wouldn't be killing innocent civilians anymore. That the choice is either "Drone strikes" or "do nothing".

But I don't know if that's accurate. If the CIA wants to kill a dude, then I'm pretty sure the choice is "kill him with drones" or "kill him with something else like car bombs". Either way, you have people who want to put a lot of bullets and/or explosions in a particular area and don't care about collateral casualties. I'm not sure the drones are the problem.

But then again, people say that about guns too. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." And it's bunk, because guns make it so much easier for bad people to kill people. Guns enable mass murder on a heretofore untold scale and need to be strictly controlled and regulated.

So maybe the same is true of CIA drone strikes. Drones don't kill people, CIA kill people, but the drones sure do help.

I don't know. I don't have the answer to this.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 9th 2019 at 2:20:16 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273913: Mar 9th 2019 at 2:27:44 PM

My issues are that targeted murder is handled far too commonly in non-war situations.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#273914: Mar 9th 2019 at 2:49:33 PM

[up] Which has nothing at all to do with drones specifically. That’s CIA policy regardless of the weapon. That’s a non-answer.

Edited by archonspeaks on Mar 9th 2019 at 2:51:19 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273915: Mar 9th 2019 at 3:01:50 PM

Your argument is nonsensical and just plain bizarre.

It's basically, "Gun Control is a stupid idea because the problem is people using them to kill people."

No one objects to Drones because they're robots. They object to drones because of how they're used.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 9th 2019 at 3:02:12 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#273916: Mar 9th 2019 at 3:03:04 PM

Then why mention drones at all if the problem has nothing to do with drones?

Say airstrike, not drone strike.

Oh really when?
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#273917: Mar 9th 2019 at 3:23:17 PM

[up][up] What does that have to do at all with drones? The issue is how they’re used...how they’re used by the CIA. The issue is with the CIA, drones are just a delivery mechanism. There’s no unique issue with them.

And, again moving the goal post. Your origibal statement was that there were more drone strikes than conventional strikes. You seem utterly unable to admit your original belief is wrong.

Edited by archonspeaks on Mar 9th 2019 at 3:26:50 AM

They should have sent a poet.
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#273918: Mar 9th 2019 at 3:26:44 PM

Milo Yiannopoulos, now more than $2 million in debt, has resorted to auctioning stuff on Instagram

How much longer before he's living in a van down by the river eating government cheese?

Do not obey in advance.
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#273919: Mar 9th 2019 at 3:30:35 PM

I really don't want to laugh at another human being's misfortune, but I can't help but admit that it's pretty hard to stick to that in cases like these.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#273920: Mar 9th 2019 at 3:33:26 PM

I have seen people object to drones themselves for various reasons, along with arguments that the collateral damage is in some way due to the nature of drone warfare. I, personally, think these reasons are mostly pretty dumb.

In this specific case, the "guns don't kill people" argument is 100% valid, because we actually can control how the CIA behaves to a notable degree (these are officials hired by the state). In fact, the problem isn't even necessarily specifically that the CIA kills people, it's that they're doing so incompetently and sloppily. The drones are the thing that's actually doing their job well.

EDIT: Meant to say 'officials hired by the state' not 'elected officials'

Edited by Protagonist506 on Mar 9th 2019 at 4:00:18 AM

Leviticus 19:34
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#273921: Mar 9th 2019 at 5:07:05 PM

Guess who's going to be dropping by the White House only 10 days from now? The disaster Brazil elected this year. I honestly feel sorry for you all, but not more than I feel for this country since he's been exactly as bad as we expected.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#273922: Mar 9th 2019 at 5:11:11 PM

Oh god. That much evil in one room is a disgrace to democracy.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#273923: Mar 9th 2019 at 5:22:25 PM

I could not be less surprised.

i'm tired, my friend
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#273924: Mar 9th 2019 at 5:29:49 PM

What's next? Trump gonna invite Putin and Kim Jong-Un too?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273925: Mar 9th 2019 at 5:30:32 PM

that would be funny if not for the fact Trump is actually friends with two of the world's worst dictators.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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