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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

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In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#273751: Mar 8th 2019 at 10:56:45 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#273752: Mar 8th 2019 at 10:56:56 AM

I repeat my prior confusion about defining Zionism in 2019.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#273753: Mar 8th 2019 at 10:58:02 AM

[up][up] Stop doubling down. Learn from your mistakes rather than just scream louder.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273754: Mar 8th 2019 at 10:58:18 AM

[up][up][up]Yeah, at this point I'm just going to stop interacting with you over this.

It's clear you're unwilling to recognize the clear and obvious wrongness of saying that David Duke was right about Israel.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 8th 2019 at 2:00:17 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273755: Mar 8th 2019 at 10:58:26 AM

I feel a bit odd saying this but zionism is actually a Pre-Holocaust movement.

There were lots of Jews moving to Israel well before WW 2.

Then it was a fringe movement of Jews who wanted to build their own nation by gradual immigration. The Palestinians at the time being, "Okay, this is a little weird. Also, kind of offensive but sure, if you want."

It only became a massive buzzword after the land was awarded to them.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#273756: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:03:33 AM

Ok then fine. I'll clarify yet again.

Duke is a horrible monster who should be burned at the stake. But I won't disagree that modern Israel is inherently evil, considering it's an ethnostate and colonialist at heart. Israel isn't a state for Jews, it's a Jewish state, and understanding the difference is integral.

No, Jews shouldn't die or anything, any idiot with half a brain could tell you that. Why Duke hates Israel is completely out of bigotry. But I take issue with trying to deflect criticism of Israel and Zionism by saying "David Duke also hates Israel."

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#273757: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:08:24 AM

Holy shit I just left for like, a half hour. What happened?

...oh. OH.

Give me a second, I'm going to need to think through my next post.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#273758: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:08:33 AM

Ok then fine. I'll clarify yet again
Correct me of I'm wrong, ~golgothasArisen but isn't that what everyone is telling you to stop doing?

Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 8th 2019 at 12:09:11 PM

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#273759: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:08:37 AM

Way to take that stand against a strawman and almost admit you misspoke earlier. Shame you're still railing against everyone else for actually reading your post.

Anyway, I'm taking Spartan's lead and dropping this.

Edited by Larkmarn on Mar 8th 2019 at 2:09:40 PM

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#273760: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:10:27 AM

Literally the post I was originally responding to said, out of left field, that oh by the way David Duke also thinks Israel is evil.

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#273761: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:10:37 AM

There have been other imperialistic enthostates. Ones that have committed mass, carefully coordinated genocide. Ones that still exist today, actually, in much more peaceful and progressive forms.

Like. We have German tropers on this site, dude. If I said their country was irredeemable and intrinsically evil, I’d probably get banned. Any country can turn itself around, and we should focus on making Israel better, not just calling them inherently evil and saying they shouldn’t exist.

golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#273762: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:11:58 AM

The difference is that Israel is doing this shit right now.

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#273763: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:13:51 AM

Netanyahu: evil, awful.

But there are Israeli politicians who don’t like or agree with the vicious policies he has promoted. I agree saying Israel is evil steps over a line- the current Israeli government has done many evil things. There’s a difference.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#273764: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:14:11 AM

Benjamin Netanyahu is the problem not Israel itself

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Mar 8th 2019 at 7:15:27 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#273765: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:15:19 AM

To clarify the Manning situation from my understanding, she's only been held in contempt so far, and most contempt cases don't go to trial. It doesn't appear that her being called to testify was an attempt to add additional charges to her case specifically.

And guys, I believe OTC has a specific rule about discussing the details of the Israel situation outside of its own thread. Might want to dial back on this one.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Mar 8th 2019 at 3:16:22 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#273766: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:15:46 AM

Cue "Another One Bites the Dust"

Bill Shine to Resign as White House Message Chief – Mr. Shine, a former co-president of Fox News, had joined the White House staff to manage President Trump’s communication operation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/us/politics/bill-shine-resigns.html

Bill Shine, the former Fox News executive who joined the White House staff last summer to manage President Trump’s communications operation, has resigned and will move to the re-election campaign, the White House announced Friday.

Mr. Shine’s abrupt departure came as a surprise to many in the White House and was revealed, as such personnel moves often are in this administration, as the president was on Air Force One heading out of town.

While described by colleagues as the adult in the room, Mr. Shine has sometimes been absent during key moments, including the president’s trip last week to Vietnam, and colleagues said there had been a lack of chemistry with Mr. Trump.

The White House sought to present Mr. Shine’s resignation as amicable and issued statements in the name of the president and other White House officials praising him. But people close to the White House described the campaign job as a way to save face.

“Bill Shine has done an outstanding job working for me and the administration,” Mr. Trump said in the statement. “We will miss him in the White House, but look forward to working together on the 2020 presidential campaign, where he will be totally involved. Thank you to Bill and his wonderful family!”

Mr. Shine, who held the title of deputy White House chief of staff, was the sixth person to accept the job to manage communications chief for this White House, a position that has been problematic in a presidency where Mr. Trump prefers to be his own chief spokesman and rarely sticks to a messaging plan that aides seek to establish. The White House gave no indication who will replace Mr. Shine.

Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 8th 2019 at 12:17:35 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#273767: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:16:44 AM

> manage President Trump’s communication operation.

we call that Twitter

-Badum tish-

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#273768: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:17:00 AM

I'm going to step in and call yet another moratorium on the Israel thing. We have one and only one topic for it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#273769: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:18:20 AM

@Fighteer, etc, I'm sorry for starting it up myself.

In other news, WTF with that Manafort sentencing.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#273770: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:18:56 AM

First all the establishment Republicans got booted out, then all the military guys he liked to brag about so much. Now even his Fox News-addled automatons are leaving?

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#273771: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:20:02 AM

[up][up]It is low, but yet two things to bear in mind:

  1. He still has another trial to be sentenced in, with a less friendly judge, that could go as high as ten years
  2. Small as it is, that sentence is still the longest given to any Mueller defendant to date.

Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 8th 2019 at 12:20:24 PM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#273772: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:28:10 AM

>Moratorium

Okay, gotcha.

Trump apparently didn't like this. Now we're see i there's going to be a pardon.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 8th 2019 at 2:28:18 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#273773: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:38:46 AM

If he pardons Manafort (and Manafort accepts it), then Manafort loses his 5A rights and has to spill his guts.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#273774: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:45:32 AM

Jesus christ. Manafort already got a ludicrously lenient sentence from a sympathetic judge who spent his actual criminal trial trying to stir up as much trouble for the Mueller team as possible.

Like. I'm not surprised Manafort got off so light. Judge Ellis has already firmly established that he thinks the Russia thing is a FAKE NEWS WITCH HUNT. During Manafort's trial, he was very clear about his position: he thinks the Mueller Prosecutors are unjustly harassing a man guilty only of the occasional white-collar crime here or there - and, of course, we all know that white-collar crime isn't really crime.

So. Yeah. The four-year sentence is disappointing but not surprising, as the signature goes. But if Trump slaps a pardon on top of it, that's just going to be the final insult. The culture war against the legally bulletproof upper class rages on.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 8th 2019 at 12:46:04 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#273775: Mar 8th 2019 at 11:46:54 AM

~sgamer82 I'm going to do my best, but if I fail, it won't be the first time. The first thing I'd like to note is that a lot of what I'm going to say is roughly the same as what I'd say on a more right leaning forum, but with details reversed. I've been thinking through this post a lot, and I'll be honest, I still don't like it, but here we go.

Just to try a slightly different tack, I want to ask you,~Soban, precisely what the right-wing is saying that we aren't really listening to? Because, personally, I'm with everyone else who believes we're hearing them loud and clear.

Nearly Everything?

The impression I get is that you are listening so hard for racism that it's all you hear. I tried to write this a dozen times trying to explain a republican position and why the arguments the right believes about it aren't coming from a bad place (which should be simple because their not. They might not be correct, but that's not the same thing). However, every time I did, I ran into the problem of racism. Not because the position or arguments are racist, but because the left sees racism in everything to the point where there are many on the right who wonder if they are projecting.

Is Trump a racist? Let’s examine how we define ‘racism.’

There are at least two main ways of defining this word. The most popular definition of racism is racial prejudice. By this definition, racism is a personal, moral failure.

...

The other way is to see racism, specifically since the mid-20th century, as a system of discrimination. In this view, a person does not need to be full of hate to perpetuate racism

...

Public opinion polls show that most Americans reject old-fashioned racist beliefs. Yet most white Americans also reject systemic solutions to discrimination such as affirmative action, which is intended to address employment discrimination using the enforcement power of the government. Such opposition, though sounding egalitarian, removes a powerful motivator for businesses to allow fair access to jobs for black Americans. White Americans often offer nonracial, economic explanations for their opposition to welfare, though anti-welfare politicians often use coded racial language in their appeals, and cutting what is often referred to as the “social safety net” — welfare, Medicare, unemployment insurance — disproportionately hurts black families. The “War on Crime” had bipartisan support, but disproportionately imprisoned African Americans. Focusing on individual racism and pursuing a colorblind U.S. system fails to change the continued disparities that disadvantage black Americans.

The right in my experience wants to pursue a color blind system. They believe that systemic racism is best fought by having a system that treats everyone as equals. While it might not be what we need right now, it is the system that we should be striving to have in the end.

I'm not really expecting this to change yours or anyone's mind. I'm putting it out as the answer to a question I said I was going to answer. I don't know if I'll answer more questions as it looks like the thread has moved on. If you read this and think "Soban's Racist!" then I don't feel like you got what I said.

TLDR; the left as a whole doesn't listen to nearly anything the right has to say, instead they hear what they want to hear.


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