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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Re the Omar controversy, I thought her comments were iffy and it's especially bad that she made them right after apologizing for another set of iffy comments which seemed to flirt with the idea of Jews controlling America with their money. But I don't think she hates Jews by any means and I see her various comments about gaining understanding as being sincere.
What I think worries me more is how a lot of the defenses of Omar took the position that no one could possibly have good faith concerns about her comments and seemed to flirt with the premise that Jews were conservative and racist enemies of progress whose concerns about anti-Semitism should be taken as seriously as a Trump supporter's concerns about anti-white racism would be (i.e. rightly not at all).
And I feel like while I doubt that Omar's intent was to shift the Overton Window to normalize anti-Semitic rhetoric in leftist politics (which unfortunately is a thing happening a lot in the English Labour Party), that has kind of been the effect of the backlash against the backlash against her, which rarely distinguished between bad faith criticisms by (generally non-Jewish) Republicans and good faith criticisms of American Jews.
Which may be why Republicans capitalized on the controversy so much- they wanted Jews to be targeted by liberals and leftists so they would be pushed away from the Democratic Party.
In a kind of dark way, the only thing that makes me kind of optimistic is that the resolution against anti-Semitism and other bigotries passed the House (and was not specifically directed against Omar), Omar voted for it, and predictably, a bunch of Republicans voted against it, which basically leaves everyone happy and Republicans showing their cards as anti-Semitic racists.
Still not happy though/ worried about various left-wing I've seen online who are angry about their being any acknowledgement of anti-Semitism being bad.
Edited by Hodor2 on Mar 8th 2019 at 10:30:43 AM
Update on Manning being detained; she's looking at contempt charges for refusing to answer a Grand Jury's questions on her original offenses. The prosecution might be after Assange.
Frankly, she should just tell the truth, and not go to prison for an extremist, Russian asset who is also probably a rapist.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.The resolution is meaningless, though. Its only purpose was shaming Omar. And I haven’t seen everyone dragging the 23 Republicans who voted against it.
Here’s my take: she made a couple iffy comments that had antisemitic undertones. She responded appropriately when initially called out.
Her more recent comments on Israel don’t merit the backlash they’ve received. It’s not in good faith from the Republicans, and anti-Blackness, misogyny, and Islamaphobia are definitely to blame. It’s especially galling compared to blatant antisemitism from Steve King and Trump etc
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I’ve seen a lot of Black Jewish writers calling out white Jews for enabling a white supremacist backed tactic that isn’t actually about antisemitism. Ben Shapiro didn’t exactly throw a fit like this over Trump’s awful response to the Tree of Life massacre or “fine people on both sides” comments in response to Charlottesville where, reminder, the white supremacists chanted “Jews will not replace us.”
Edited by wisewillow on Mar 8th 2019 at 12:05:16 PM
House Democrats just passed a slate of significant reforms to get money out of politics
. We all know that Evil Turtle won't let it pass, of course.
Edited by SeptimusHeap on Mar 8th 2019 at 6:14:08 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman@Wisewillow- Well, although he is Jewish, I don't think I'd consider Ben Shapiro to be operating in good faith on this (or probably any) issue.
I do see the point about and agree with the racist and Islamophobic undertones (and in some cases overtones) or this controversy, and just to be clear it's horrific that she got death threats and I do not want her to be forced to resign or even loose a committee chair.
At the same time though, the bad faith and racist elements don't mean that her comments weren't iffy, and basically I don't want this situation to end with people concluding that Democrats should be more anti-Semitic.
Also, you get at something which I really don't like about this discussion. Although to your credit, you mentioned Ben Shapiro specifically rather than American Jews, which is fair, I really dislike how a lot of people are acting like American Jews weren't outraged by the racist shitheads in Charlottesville or the Tree of Life Massacre.
Edited by Hodor2 on Mar 8th 2019 at 11:27:16 AM
Manning being arrested feels a lot like them going after her because of who she is and not for anything she actually did. I’m really worried that she’ll end up going through the same shit she did last time, and this time she didn’t even do anything major enough to really deserve prison time.
And prison is one of the worst possible places for a trans person to be.
@Wisewillow-
I've seen online a whole lot of "Ilhan did nothing wrong", treating all of the criticism as bad faith, and feeding this vicious circle where criticism of anti-semitism is seen as proof of the disproportionate influence of Zionists/Jews.
I mean I really like AOC, but like she made a comment to the effect of wondering why anti-Semitism merited a resolution when there wasn't a resolution for any number of anti-Hispanic comments by Trump and others. And the thing is, those things should be called out (and often have been by American Jews), and definitely should have been denounced more by legislators. The fact that they weren't is not an argument against calling out ant-Semitism.
I will acknowledge that there is definitely some white privilege for American Jews at play in why Republicans care or pretend to care about anti-Semitism (coupled with the opportunity to attack a black Muslim), but I really don't like the idea which seems to be spreading that caring about anti-Semitism is an unfair privilege being demanded by Jews.
One other thought- Omar's comments are very minor on the scale of things, especially compared to a massacre, and very plausibly were made with no ill-intent. But normalizing anti-Semitism on the left makes it easier for right-wing anti-Semites (who are more likely to be the violent kind) to say, "even the left admits that Jews are bad/ control America".
Edit- I think that's enough soapboxing from me.
Edit 2- I lied. It does suck that the Republicans who voted against the resolution aren't getting dragged. But American Jews (at least ones who aren't Republicans) are definitely not cool with them and I think rightly see that as worse than anything done by Omar.
I think as is the case in other circumstances, no one really expects Republicans to do the right thing or be anti-racist, so it's not a news story when they do something bad. Whereas there is an exception of Democrats doing the right thing and not being racist, so it is a news story when they do something bad. And the news media really loves "Dems in disarray" stories.
Edited by Hodor2 on Mar 8th 2019 at 11:47:04 AM
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Seems like that. She did say she was willing to talk publicly, it was the hidden aspect of the jury that she objected to. However, they don't actually seem to care. Personally, it looks just like that - they're going after her because she's her.
On the whole Antisemitism thing: I will say that one side being bad does not justify bad comments on the other, and that Omar's comment about loyalties was using Antisemetic tropes. I will also point out, that the backlash has become for a significant part an Islamophobic pile-on at a freshman Wo C. SO yes, Omar did things wrong that should be criticized, and the Right Wing backlash is driven almost entirely by racism.
Also, just an anecdote, but I have seen commentators criticizing the Republicans for voting against the motion.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 8th 2019 at 1:03:35 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerI mean, all Omar's done is point out how much Zionist lobbies own politicians in either party. She isn't wrong in the slightest about that. People trying to turn the narrative into "she's using antisemetic tropes" are bullshit and just delegitimizing actual antisemitism from the right.
"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"![]()
Her comment about loyalties was that American politicians are expected to toe the line on Israel, moreso than with any other ally. She’s not wrong.
Although weirdly, a lot of the Republicans who are pro-Israel are also antisemitic.. it’s that whole gross evangelical aspect that believes Christ will return and bring the rapture and somehow Jews being in Israel is part of that. It’s very creepy and gross.
This seems to me like abusing loopholes around the "can only be tried once for something". Its also not unexpected - she had been trying to raise money for legal fees to challenge the summons.
Subpoenas aren't really something you can refuse to follow, I don't see anything unjust with her being arrested over that.
Yes, Omar said that. Which is objectively wrong, American US support for Israel is complex and reducing it to money is both counterfactual and highly problematic.
Evangelical theology, geopolitical strategy dating back to the Cold War, and yes lobbying all have their role. Talking about people supporting Israel "because of the Benjamins" is like talking about Black Thugs, it's both stupidly reductionist and connected to well-entrenched bigoted tropes.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 8th 2019 at 1:16:32 PM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangNot to mention that declaring that Zionists are secretly manipulating everyone is an antisemitic trope.
And I'll third the idea that Manning really shouldn't be disobeying the subpoena like that. Nor should she be trying to make her answering it conditional.
Edited by M84 on Mar 9th 2019 at 2:16:26 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedFundamentally this idea that people only support Israel because of the dastardly pro-Israel lobby is both problematic and counterproductive, if we don't assume that people can sincerely support it then it's going to be harder to convince anyone.
Now obviously, the crazies who think Israel is required for the Rapture can't be convinced but I don't think they're everyone.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Mar 8th 2019 at 1:18:22 PM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangI do. She's already been arrested once over this, testified about it, and then went to prison over it. Calling her back again seems ridiculous, and arresting her for not wanting to rehash it seems cruel, considering what her time in prison was the last time. And she's going to jail because...she wouldn't go to a closed trial for a government that had done nothing but be cruel to her? Yeah. Put me firmly in the "this is unjust and clearly targeted" camp.
If they truly wanted to know, they could have just looked back at her last trial.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 8th 2019 at 1:22:02 PM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -FighteerAnd again, if the reports are accurate, all she had to do was answer questions and throw a certain insufferable piece of human garbage under the bus.
I sympathize with her, but you don't play chicken with the Grand Jury.
That, and the whole Rapture thing also implies that the Jews go to Hell in some versions, but they are a sort of necessary evil to make sure the pure and true get their paradise world. Its a sickening and baffling bit of ideology
Edited by Rationalinsanity on Mar 8th 2019 at 2:25:14 PM
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.So what? We should allow people to ignore subpoenas whenever they want?
If there is something unjust occurring it should be corrected but at its face, I don't see any reason to think she's in the right. Subpoenas are not and should not be at the discretion of the people called.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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