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Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#273126: Feb 28th 2019 at 12:47:53 PM

I disagree, I think that the so called 'pipeline' is a myth. The reason it exists is an artifact of Libertarians being so broad and so the first stop for anyone leaving the mainstream.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273127: Feb 28th 2019 at 12:48:02 PM

As someone who was once a republican, the problems that they have really pain me. Can we get a party with all of the good stuff of the two parties and none of the bad stuff? The closest I've been able to find is the Libertarian, but well they have bad stuff too. /wishfulThinking

That depends on what you think are the good and bad parts of the Republicans and Democrats.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#273128: Feb 28th 2019 at 12:51:25 PM

the very very broad strokes are the economics of republican (low taxes, less government intervention)[not that republicans have actually carried through on those things] and the social of democrats (let people do what they want) but there are a lot of details in that. I don't like how everyone seems to treat people as these monolithic blocks rather then individuals. It verges on nationalism.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273129: Feb 28th 2019 at 12:55:33 PM

the very very broad strokes are the economics of republican (low taxes, less government intervention)[not that republicans have actually carried through on those things] and the social of democrats (let people do what they want) but there are a lot of details in that. I don't like how everyone seems to treat people as these monolithic blocks rather then individuals. It verges on nationalism.

Ah, so you're fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Ok, that simplifies things.

In that case, I will point out the existence of New Democrats or Conservative Democrats, both involve pro-market positions with socially liberal policies (though the New Democrats are more consistently socially liberal).

In a hypothetical situation where the Republican Party collapses they would likely form their own party for people like yourself, but they exist now and in the case of the state and local level they can have a very real impact on your life and the lives of others.

So if I were you I'd look up local Democrats and see whether they or future candidates align with those groups.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 28th 2019 at 3:56:08 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#273130: Feb 28th 2019 at 1:05:14 PM

A little bit of for-fun from the Twitter of Garrett M Graff

https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1100810127077269505?s=19

Underscoring Cohen's testimony that his father believes Don Jr. has "the worst judgment of anyone in the world," he retweeted my observation about how credible Cohen seems....

Said observation: https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1100787323640397824?s=19

Incredible to see all the hubris drained from Cohen. I've been personally screamed at by Cohen on the phone before and know how much bravado he once had. This is a man with nothing left, with no reason to lie or obfuscate at all. Humbling, in its way.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#273131: Feb 28th 2019 at 1:28:03 PM

[up][up] I mean, the problem is that the GOP isn't even fiscally conservative anymore. They're not so much "cut taxes and reduce spending" as "cut taxes on the rich and don't reduce spending, and definitely don't do anything that reduces spending in the long term."

When I realized that was when I realized the party had literally nothing to offer.

Edited by Larkmarn on Feb 28th 2019 at 4:38:32 AM

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#273132: Feb 28th 2019 at 1:32:46 PM

[up]Truth

@Fourth,

Thanks for the recommendations.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#273133: Feb 28th 2019 at 1:35:54 PM

the very very broad strokes are the economics of republican (low taxes, less government intervention)[not that republicans have actually carried through on those things] and the social of democrats (let people do what they want) but there are a lot of details in that.

That was my politics from about age 18-22 or so. It’s nice in theory but doesn’t really work in practice.

Unfortunately, it’s not as simple as “let people do what they want.” Without public education, access to healthcare, access to equal opportunities without discrimination, clean air, labor rights, etc, people *can’t* do what they want. And any creation of a social safety net and pro equality changes require funding.

Now, long term, a lot of social programs are cheaper than the status quo. For example, providing homeless people with housing, and hiring social workers to help them get back on their feet, is far cheaper than the cost of imprisoning homeless people or the cost of emergency room visits.

But at the same time, what is morally right (helping people survive and thrive with equal opportunities) should not be measured in economic terms. It’s about justice. It’s about compassion. It’s about saying people shouldn’t have to suffer when we as a society could ease their suffering.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 28th 2019 at 4:37:50 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#273134: Feb 28th 2019 at 1:38:02 PM

Yes, social democrats' approach to these issues is twofold:

  • We can help these people, because it's cheaper in the long run than not helping them.
  • We should help these people, because it's our moral duty as a society.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 28th 2019 at 4:38:16 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#273135: Feb 28th 2019 at 1:49:48 PM

[up]

Agreed - that's why most of the arguments I come up with tend to have that approach. One aspect that appeals to morality/emotion, and one that appeals to pragmatism/rationality - you increase the odds that the person you're debating with will concede the wisdom in a point, if nothing else.

Edited by ironballs16 on Feb 28th 2019 at 4:53:08 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273136: Feb 28th 2019 at 1:58:48 PM

Thanks for the recommendations.

My pleasure smile

I mean, the problem is that the GOP isn't even fiscally conservative anymore. They're not so much "cut taxes and reduce spending" as "cut taxes on the rich and don't reduce spending, and definitely don't do anything that reduces spending in the long term."

When I realized that was when I realized the party had literally nothing to offer.

Well said! Their economic policies are just purest plutocracy wearing the corpse of fiscal conservatism.

Though it's worth noting that I'm not really a fan of fiscal conservatism at the best of times but it doesn't have to be the insanity that is Republican Party economic policy.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#273137: Feb 28th 2019 at 2:05:28 PM

They're perfectly willing to cut spending on social programs if they think they can get away with it.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273138: Feb 28th 2019 at 2:13:22 PM

Sure, but it's selective, they have no problem maintaining and expanding one of the biggest portions of the pie, our defense spending.

Their point stands, Republican fiscal conservatism is a sham.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 28th 2019 at 5:13:45 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#273139: Feb 28th 2019 at 2:33:20 PM

Especially given that the Pentagon is engaging into enough creative accounting that one wonders what that money heads to.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#273141: Feb 28th 2019 at 3:47:09 PM
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#273142: Feb 28th 2019 at 3:55:34 PM

The Republicans are all about "cut taxes and borrow heavily" because everytime they try to cut entitlement programs they become very unpopular.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#273143: Feb 28th 2019 at 4:01:06 PM

[up]That's why they fail, not why they do it.

The reason they do it is because their fiscal conservatism is a lie meant to transform unpopular objectives into vaguely acceptable policies.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 28th 2019 at 7:01:23 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273144: Feb 28th 2019 at 4:07:34 PM

I don't know what inspired the actual Kill the Poor Republicans but there's branches that wish to cut all programs that help them and actively destroy education, medicine, and poverty relief.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#273145: Feb 28th 2019 at 4:09:56 PM

The reason why they do it is because their wealthy donors believe it serves their interests. Thats also why they cling to supply side economics.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#273146: Feb 28th 2019 at 4:11:27 PM

I vaguely remember something recently about the person who came up with Reaganomics saying it doesn't work. Anyone know anything about that?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#273147: Feb 28th 2019 at 4:14:00 PM

Honestly, Reaganomics was never something that anyone seriously believed except the super rich and even then it was even in the name.

"Trickle down economics."

A trickle, not a river.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#273148: Feb 28th 2019 at 4:31:49 PM

I will said there is a belive that being super uber rich is just question of closing your eyes and pull work on it, so is fair to cut everything you dont want to.

Is a very dog eat dog mentality.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#273149: Feb 28th 2019 at 4:41:54 PM

He who is not a Libertarian at 18, has no brain. He who is still a Libertarian at 30, has no heart and no brain. -me, playing with Bismarck's comment on socialism.

Like wisewillow, I moved away from fiscal conservatism because it simply doesn't add up, even though I still consider liberalism my first-principles goal.

@Charles Phipps: Reaganomics is dead. The whole concept of trickle-down has been replaced by open animosity towards the poor and comments like "die faster."

Edited by Ramidel on Feb 28th 2019 at 3:42:49 AM

golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#273150: Feb 28th 2019 at 6:25:11 PM

To be honest, the whole idea of "fiscally conservative, socially progressive" is contradictory. You can't claim to have progressive ideas for society if you're also in favor of fiscal policy that hurts these same sections of society.

Not to mention, a lot of libertarians cling onto their strongly conservative financial policies than their "do whatever" social policies, leading to the inevitable alt-right pipeline.

Edited by golgothasArisen on Feb 28th 2019 at 8:26:11 AM

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"

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