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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#272801: Feb 25th 2019 at 6:52:43 PM

Losing cities and industries and jobs and homes and lives to climate change is gonna be more expensive.

To add to what Wisewillow said here, the GND isn't spending money willy nilly, it's an investment in the future. The upfront cost will be paid back in the energy, health, social services, and infrastructure costs we save and the natural disasters we will avoid by curbing climate change.

To use a very minor comparision; Buying a low flow shower head can cost between $10 to $40 bucks. Sure, that's money you have to spend upfront, but the money you save from using less water thanks to the showerhead will usually amount to the same you spent before a year, so it basically pays for itself. Then you keep on saving money afterwards while consuming less water, so it's a win-win.

So what I'm saying is, the GND is like taking a shower. But the water is money. And that's about as far as I can stretch this metaphor.

Edited by Parable on Feb 25th 2019 at 6:58:15 AM

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#272802: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:05:03 PM

That said, the upfront costs are very expensive, at least if you include a sizable contribution from new nuclear power plants. We need something like 50 more of them.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Ramen Fairy
#272803: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:08:16 PM

Is upgrading every U.S. building (as outlined in the GND) feasible?

[up] The GND says no new nuclear power plants will be built (existing ones will stay).

Edited by Spinosegnosaurus77 on Feb 25th 2019 at 10:09:19 AM

Peace is the only battle worth waging.
Imca (Veteran)
#272804: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:10:26 PM

[up] Neither of those are feasible, your going to need nuclear to pick up the slack since we cant store power to any reasonable extent, and upgrading every building in a country is a logistics nightmare.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#272805: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:11:55 PM

Losing half the coastal cities underwater is gonna be more expensive.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#272806: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:15:36 PM

Can you give me a link on "no new nuclear plants"? There really is no way to get there in a cost effective manner without additional nuclear. Renewables alone wont do it. The problem isnt production costs, its storage (nuclear continuously produces more power than can be used in a local setting, so storage isnt an issue).

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#272808: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:20:25 PM

The resolution itself doesn't mention nuclear power, technically. It does however say 100% renewables is the goal, and most nuclear power isn't technically renewable.

Add that to the earlier faq from AOC's office which stated they didn't want new nuclear plants, and well...

Disgusted, but not surprised
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#272809: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:23:43 PM

We aren't going 100% renewable unless there is some sort of breakthrough in energy storage technology. We dont have to go 100% nuclear, though, because electric cars connected to a smart grid every night do provide considerable additional storage, enough to cover a windless week, roughly, but that wont be enough by itself.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Imca (Veteran)
#272810: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:26:20 PM

Is that for residential or industrial though? Because industrial is just on a scale of its own, we are talking 1/3rd of a gas fired plants output for a single steel mill. I am not sure electric cars as storage can cover that.

....

Though we have kind of just made a major break through in efficient storage, density is still a problem.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#272811: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:36:25 PM

Most hunters are pretty enviromently minded, with rules on never killing pregnant females or infants and such.

Most problems with hunting comes from places where it is not regulated and endengered animals aren't protected like, well, more African countries than you can shake a stick at.

Quite a lot of the early figures in the Conservation movement were interested in hunting. George Bird Grinnell, was the first editor of the Forest and Stream Magazine, was one of the chief advocates of early ideas about Conservation and habitat protection in his editorials. He and TR founded the Boone and Crocket Club, and helped bring the language of conservation into the national consciousness.

I mean, it makes sense. If you like hunting and other outdoor activities, it's very important to have places to do so.

Edited by megaeliz on Feb 25th 2019 at 10:37:31 AM

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#272812: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:42:53 PM

@Imca: Yes. Assuming that a regional power grid were being supplied by solar, supplemented by wind, converting all private ground transportation in that region to electric would create sufficient storage to cover about 5 windless nights (if we supplement with pumped storage, we can about double that). Mind you, when I say "storage" I really mean that the chargers stay off all night. That creates additional capacity that can be used elsewhere. When you factor in buying back electricity stored in consumers' car batteries the amount available increases again. But both scenarios only last until the consumer must recharge their car.

Edited by DeMarquis on Feb 25th 2019 at 10:44:15 AM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#272813: Feb 25th 2019 at 7:53:09 PM

... No feedback on my question about Beau of the Fifth Column?

The US has trained the Pakistan military as entirely commandos because they don't have any air support or infrastructure for larger vehicles. They work sometimes but it's not capable of actually fighting like a modern war.
I'm gonna assume that you meant "Afghan" there, because that's the only way it would make sense.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#272814: Feb 25th 2019 at 8:10:06 PM

G.O.P. Tries to Hold Down Defections Before Vote to Block Trump’s Emergency – With some Republicans worried over precedent, party leaders are scrambling to hold their troops in line ahead of a House vote to reject President Trump’s emergency declaration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/us/politics/national-emergency-republicans.html

Imca (Veteran)
#272815: Feb 25th 2019 at 8:12:20 PM

I get the feeling there will be enough defectors that it hits the presidents desk, but not enough to overide a veto.

Cris_Meyers reluctant author, willing misanthrope from Chicagoland (Fifth Year at Tropey's) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
reluctant author, willing misanthrope
#272816: Feb 25th 2019 at 8:33:47 PM

Same here. I think there's just enough senators in swing it otherwise vulnerable states that the question "yea or nay?" is a catch-22. They'll get enough to get thru the Senate, but there's no way they're overriding the inevitable veto.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#272817: Feb 25th 2019 at 8:45:44 PM

@Marq: Sorry, I don't know anything about the guy.

How is this a conflict of interest?

You realize that you're asking a reasonable question about a Trump statement, right? The answer is obviously "not."

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#272818: Feb 25th 2019 at 9:27:25 PM

I mean, if they're scrambling to get defectors into line, that says to me that they're worried about it getting a veto-proof majority in the senate- Like, if it was just Murkowski and Collins and Rand Paul and people like that, they'd probably just say 'well, whatever, they're voting like that because that's how they play to their base, and since Trump's just going to veto it anyway, it's not like it matters.'

But if there's sizeable number of defectors- well beyond the usual suspects- then the narrative becomes 'Trump clashes with GOP' and that's a narrative that's bad for both of them.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272819: Feb 25th 2019 at 9:57:54 PM

Regarding the "price tags" for the Green New Deal, I just have to wonder if people are confusing spending with loans; investment programs usually are the latter the key difference is that the entities that receive loans need to pay them back at some point.

If people are claiming that a government loaning out 93 trillion dollars or whatever has a "price tag" of 93 trillion dollars or whatever, you aren't looking at a price tag. You are looking at accounting fraud and an attempt at misrepresenting things.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Imca (Veteran)
#272820: Feb 25th 2019 at 10:07:16 PM

[up][up] The problem is that they dont want it to hit the presidents desk in the first place, because that puts them in the spot light and forces them to make a stand.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#272821: Feb 25th 2019 at 10:59:52 PM

https://www.politifact.com/facebook-fact-checks/statements/2019/feb/25/facebook-posts/facebook-post-has-false-information-about-bernie-s/

Sanders is starting his campaign against his racist or at least culturally insensitive image by talking about his past protesting segregation and saying he's been targeted for racist ads.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#272822: Feb 25th 2019 at 11:37:02 PM

OK, what is Beau of the Fifth Column (linked to in this post by Oruka) like? The self-description of "a southern journalist who is tired of a lack of common sense" can go either way, and I don't want to waste my time listening to the ravings of a fundamentalist right-winger who tries to masquerade as a "centrist"/"moderate" or something like that if I can help it.

He's actually a left-winger. A straight-up socio-anarchist at times, in fact, with the added bonus of having some better insight in the mindset of southern US country people than most left-wingers. He did a pretty good series on potentially sensible gun legislation. Also the way police training in the US declined in recent decades, resulting in people getting killed senselessly. And, as banal as the inciting incident was, I enjoyed his take on the whole Gillette riot.

I don't quite agree with him on everything (the whole "anarchism" thing just doesn't scale up beyond small communities all that well, if you ask me), but he's not calling for molotov cocktails as the primary means of political discourse, so he's cool in my book.

Edited by Kayeka on Feb 25th 2019 at 8:39:02 PM

Spinosegnosaurus77 Ramen Fairy from Ontario, Canada Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#272825: Feb 26th 2019 at 6:55:18 AM

Anyone not surprised? I'm not surprised.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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