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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#272576: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:23:39 PM

You’re not finding the grandchild guilty of theft; you’re asking them to give back what their grandfather stole.

RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#272577: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:24:00 PM

I'd just go with a Pay It Forward sort of approach and call it a day. I don't think it's possible to properly make up for mistakes or misdeeds centuries old.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#272578: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:24:39 PM

[up][up] This exactly. The problem is that they no longer have exactly what their grandfather stole; rather, they enjoy centuries of social and economic privilege derived from the proceeds of that theft.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:24:47 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#272579: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:25:44 PM

Also, given what this case is actually determining, whether a crime was committed in US territory, I kind of doubt that any ruling will just automatically hand over land to anyone. I feel like there would have to be far more steps involved than this.

I mean, there's not really much land handing over happening if they decided that actually, this is reservation land. You'd basically be announcing that the entire Tulsa metropolitan area is actually not under the control of Oklahoma. Which would be... you know. A problem.

[down] ... yes? And? The majority of the focus is on reparations for slavery.

Edited by RainehDaze on Feb 22nd 2019 at 9:27:51 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#272580: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:25:58 PM

[up][up][up]The New Deal was in the 1930s. The housing programs and GI Bill were in the 1940s and 50s. The first black children to attend white schools are alive and currently in their 60s.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:26:34 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#272581: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:25:59 PM

...Aaaaaaaaaand this is the whole problem with why progress against racism in America is so slow. One of the most common reactions by white people is "but I'm not racist!" What we see here is a common version of that: "just because my ancestors hurt your people doesn't mean I have any part in it!"

Then maybe choose more effective means of fighting structural discrimination?

I don't really see any evidence that reparations are especially practical, like, if white people are uncomfortable with reparations but not with criminal justice reform then surely the latter is better to advance the interests of African-Americans?

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#272582: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:27:20 PM

Locking up less Black people doesn’t make economic inequality go away. It just removes one factor which caused it.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:27:31 AM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#272583: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:28:12 PM

[up]

And if their grandfather had splurged it all, leaving them with effectively nothing?

That's the part with any idea of direct reparations that tends to rankle people (myself included) - I had ancestors that fought on both sides of the Civil War. If one of them had held slaves, would that be balanced out by the ones that fought to free them? Or weighed heavier by the ones that sought to keep them enslaved? Aside from that, after that many generations, how spread out would that wealth be? There's a shitload of logistics to consider when it comes to that idea, whereas the idea of the US government issuing them sits a bit easier. Except then you'd have the same asses that try claiming that "welfare queens" are a rampant issue decrying that and highlighting situations in which wealthy black people (e.g. Ben Carson) might get reparations while already being very well-off - or conversely, what if he was denied them because he was well-off? That shit still happened to his ancestors, regardless of how he, personally, is doing.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#272584: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:28:48 PM

I can't help but think there must be better analogies than the literal theft ones people keep using.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#272585: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:29:30 PM

[up][up][up] Economic inequality is fixed by this proposal how? At best you just rearrange who's poor.

Edited by RainehDaze on Feb 22nd 2019 at 9:29:44 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#272586: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:31:02 PM

Locking up less Black people doesn’t make economic inequality go away. It just removes one factor which caused it.

It still makes things better and unlike reparations it's very popular.

Also, can we please state what we actually mean by reparations? Because I have yet to hear anyone (including the candidates in question) actually propose anything specific.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:31:24 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#272587: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:35:41 PM

[up]

I'll admit, when I hear the word, I immediately think of that old Family Guy episode in which Cleveland got direct reparations from the (now poor) descendants of the family that had enslaved his ancestor - said reparation being something like $5 and a coupon, because that was all the person could actually afford, while Peter's ancestor was enslaved by the still-wealthy Pewterschmidt's, so he got a boatload of cash.

And here's something worth asking (and may already have been asked/answered in the past few pages) - have there been studies about whether African-Americans actually want reparations to happen? I wouldn't doubt it if there have been, but I had a bit of a White Man's Burden moment pop into my head, so I'd like that assuaged. I've tried Googling, but the Rasmussen poll was behind a paywall (as well as talking about Maxine Waters for some reason), and I'm not sure I've found one that narrowed it down by ethnicity in terms of support/opposition. The Rasmussen one claimed 70% opposition.

[down][down]

Care to clarify your stance on how they should be done, then? Because that was in answer to Fourth's question.

Edited by ironballs16 on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:54:42 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272588: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:44:51 PM

This four year old poll and this two year old one see a slight majority support for payments or "incentives" that could be considered part of "reparations" among African Americans. I suspect though that the reparation question hasn't received much salience so far and thus polling is thin.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Feb 22nd 2019 at 10:46:47 AM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#272589: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:46:02 PM

Rasmussen is notorious for skewing conservative.

Literally no one is proposing that poor white people hand over their meager savings to poor black people. That is a total strawman.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#272590: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:47:36 PM

>Literally no one is proposing that poor white people hand over their meager savings to poor black people.

So what are you proposing exactly?

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#272591: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:48:46 PM

I pay absolutely no attention to social media whatsoever, so I couldnt care any less what a group of self-proclaimed supporters of anyone say or claim. I have my own reasons for respecting Bernie Sanders, even though these days I tend to lean toward Warren or Harris.

@Fighteer: "Take a look at this infographic by Forbes from 2017, which shows median wealth by race in the U.S.

I see no reasonable way to bring the black and Hispanic lines on that chart up to the same level as the white ones without lowering the white ones a bit — in a relative sense, if not necessarily absolute."

Reducing relative disparity is fine- most people don't care as long as their own family's standard of living improves. They are eve willing to pay taxes toward it, as long as they can see that the outcome benefits society as a whole, at least in the long run. That's how social programs get funded, after all. The idea behind the "War on Poverty", though it had problems of it's own, was rather popular for a long time.

I think it would be trivial to make a case that reducing racial economic and other disparities benefits society as a whole, but that's not what people are thinking of when the debate "Reparations."

(BTW- with regard to that article, I had forgotten by just how much middle class households had lost purchasing power after the 2008 financial crisis. No wonder so many of them are feeling so pissed off even now).

Edited by DeMarquis on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:50:10 AM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#272592: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:49:21 PM

@"reparations": if the word itself is a turn-off, and they're going to consist in making the system better, making right what has been wrong, straightening out what was twisted and crooked, addressing injustice, setting the record straight... why not call them "redresses" then?

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#272593: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:51:03 PM

Why not call them "reducing disparity" programs, which has the benefit of being completely objectively accurate?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#272594: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:52:28 PM

[up][up][up][up]

I’m not proposing anything. There’s a variety of reparations proposals, but literally none of them hinge on “impose tax only on white people; hand money to black people.”

I would think that a one time wealth/property tax with the proceeds distributed to all persons, regardless of race, with income and/or property under a certain amount would be most effective. It would also help with generational poverty in indigenous communities, Latino communities, and even poor white communities.

But that’s literally wealth redistribution so conservatives would shriek their heads off.

Edited by wisewillow on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:55:09 AM

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#272595: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:55:57 PM

I don't know, I think I could get behind a 'negative income tax' of sorts if it was sold the right way.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#272596: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:57:06 PM

... then what are these proposals that sound horribly misnamed?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#272597: Feb 22nd 2019 at 2:00:17 PM

Reparations should be paid by the US government because it was the US government because it was the US government who legalized slavery.

Mind you, in Kentucky, the usual thing about welfare is that a bunch of "I'm not racist" white people get angry when black people get welfare but are happy to accept their own checks.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 22nd 2019 at 2:02:25 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#272598: Feb 22nd 2019 at 2:05:20 PM

Reparations should be paid by the US government because it was the US government because it was the US government who legalized slavery.

Mind you, in Kentucky, the usual thing about welfare is that a bunch of "I'm not racist" white people get angry when black people get welfare but are happy to accept their own checks.

What a silly distinction, the US government gets its funds through taxation. So, of course, it would be paid by the US government, that doesn't really say much either way.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#272599: Feb 22nd 2019 at 2:09:34 PM

[up][up]

Makes me think of a political cartoon my mom has hanging on her fridge from years ago, in which a farmer just finishes painting "Get that Socialist out of the White House!" on the side of his barn before heading into town to cash his Farm Subsidy check.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#272600: Feb 22nd 2019 at 2:11:20 PM

What a silly distinction, the US government gets its funds through taxation. So, of course, it would be paid by the US government, that doesn't really say much either way.

Taxes which don't necessarily all come from US citizens and certainly could go to other projects which will go to others. The idea that slavery reparations will be waste compared to dozens of other projects is ridiculous.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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