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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272551: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:04:48 PM

To be fair, I don't think anyone has ever provided evidence that "Russian trolls" make up a significant share of the Sanders supporters online.

Regarding reparations, I was always thinking that one of the reasons for them is to break up poverty positive feedback loops. Poverty can be self-sustaining even if all racism were to vanish tomorrow.

Regarding what Parable said, I noticed a similar thing with e.g the public's view on Bernie Sanders vs. the view of him in this thread. I dunno if there are more recent data.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#272552: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:06:40 PM

This is why I get frustrated with discussions on these issues.

For example, BLM doesn’t want cops to shoot white serial killers. They’re justifiably angry that unarmed Black people get killed while armed white boys get brought in alive. BLM wants cops to not shoot people *in general.*

That’s it. Reparations isn’t about taking away from white people; it’s about lifting up Black people who were locked out from opportunities for generations. The new deal alone made a huge deal, as white families built generational wealth through home ownership and entered the middle class, while the majority of Black people were blocked from accessing those opportunities.

Maybe don't use the word reparations then?

Merriam-Webster defines reparations as:

1. a repairing or keeping in repair

2a. the act of making amends, offering expiation, or giving satisfaction for a wrong or injury

2b. something done or given as amends or satisfaction

3. the payment of damages : INDEMNIFICATION

So... if you don't want white people to think of things being taken away then perhaps using a word strongly associated with monetary payment (with implied monetary cost) isn't the best idea.

Regarding what Parable said, I noticed a similar thing with e.g the public's view on Bernie Sanders vs. the view of him in this thread. I dunno if there are more recent data.

I don't think anyone has claimed that the thread's views of Sanders are the norm, unfortunately, they are not.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#272553: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:07:05 PM

Philosophical arguments against tend to reek of a "fuck you, got mine" stance. Practical arguments against (optics, distribution) are fine, but "well I didn't do anything wrong and I don't want to benefit off the atrocities, I just am.

Someone earlier asked "how can I get onto another ladder?" and you can't. You'd just be benefiting without a choice, but you are benefiting.

It's kind of like why we don't let people pick and choose taxes. Some people go "well, I don't drive so why should my taxes go to roads?" or "I don't have kids, why should my taxes go to schools?" The answer is because you're still benefiting from these things even if it's not by choice.

Another similar situation is forcing workers to pay a baseline union due even if they don't choose to be in the union, because even if they're not choosing to try to benefit from the union's collective bargaining, they still do.

Now, I know that the arguments "it's like taxes and unions!" aren't going to convince a lot of people since they're both unpopular among the people who would oppose reparations the most, but it's how I see it.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#272554: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:07:51 PM

To be fair, I don't think anyone has ever provided evidence that "Russian trolls" make up a significant share of the Sanders supporters online.

Russian trolls do not make up a significant portion of the voter base; that's never been the issue.

What we are seeing in this election cycle, however, is the trolls latching onto and promoting the social media posts of real people. For example, let's say someone creates a meme about Elizabeth Warren in blackface or whatever. They post it on Twitter. The bots then retweet and promote that post, giving it high visibility. Other real people who may already be inclined to believe this by virtue of their political views then adopt it as a meme because of that visibility, even though it came from a single dipshit who completely made it up.

People who support politicians like Jill Stein and Bernie Sanders tend to adopt these memes much more willingly because they are predisposed to an "us vs them" mentality and are thus particularly vulnerable to affinity fraud based on confirming their biases. Sanders himself does nothing to discourage this persecution mentality with his complaints about the Democratic nomination process.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 22nd 2019 at 3:09:52 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#272555: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:08:48 PM

Unless you would be using regressive taxation no, you mostly would not.

And this assumes that a black person's specific wealth would be ignored when deciding how to doll it out, a questionable assumption.

Regardless, my point is simply that opposing it on the principle that it would be punishing people for something they aren't responsible for is the exact logic used to justify opposing taxes for wealthy people. "Don't punish success" and all that.

Personally, I have some rather significant practical concerns with the idea of reparations but I'm still unimpressed with their logic.

There are elements of regressive taxation in the US tax structure, though, and for reparations to be fair you would have to be agnostic with regards to the wealth of the recipients. It's somewhat less absurd once you put those restrictions in—but then you'd still be trying to sell a policy that more money should be given to this subset of the poor because there's a slightly different reason for it.

Which, aside from being a great way to generate even more tension, wouldn't actually help anything in the long run.

[up][up][up] And I see you've gotten to the rest of the point which is "don't call it reparations". [lol]

Edited by RainehDaze on Feb 22nd 2019 at 8:09:55 PM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272556: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:10:30 PM

Fighteer, I was talking about "Russians" as social media posts not voters.

Come to think of that, do we have numbers about how how many African Americans are Democrats vs. Republicans vs. Independents? I already found exit polls for 2016 but they are not the metric I need.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#272557: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:29:26 PM

Sorry, I should have said "support base", not "voter base". Of supporters on social media, Russian bots tend to post in disproportionate quantities to promote specific memes that advance the agenda of promoting Donald Trump or dividing the Democratic coalition.

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 22nd 2019 at 3:30:35 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#272558: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:36:14 PM

So Five Thirty Eight did a bit on how Clinton not being in the race may hurt Bernie isn’t he primary, specifically because a chunk of Bernie’s voters in 2016 weren’t there because they liked him, but because they disliked Clinton, this includes a number of moderate/right wing primary voters (including republicans in some states) who weren’t even close to Bernie ideologically.

It’s roughly a quarter of Bernie’s primary votes that came from people who didn’t vote for Hillary in either the primary or the general (or want to vote for her in the later but for some reason fail to do so), only 12% of his primary supporters actually voted for Trump (which remember includes Republicans who voted in the democratic primary), with the rest doing a mix of things.

What I find most interesting is that in 8 of the states Bernie won in 2016 he’d have actully lost if it wasn’t for the #Never Hillary voters.[1]

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#272559: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:42:52 PM

While I more or less trust Five Thirty Eight's analyses, I'd like to note that a lot of Bernie supporters these days have already adopted Never Kamala or Never Elizabeth stances.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#272560: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:44:06 PM

a lot of Bernie supporters these days have already adopted Never Kamala or Never Elizabeth stances.

Because they're really committed to the idea of representative democracy, as opposed to following their little cult leader. /sarcasm

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#272561: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:45:31 PM

I mean, heck, I voted for Bernie back in the 2016 primaries, but these guys piss me off.

Edited by Clarste on Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:45:47 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#272562: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:50:43 PM

While I more or less trust Five Thirty Eight's analyses, I'd like to note that a lot of Bernie supporters these days have already adopted Never Kamala or Never Elizabeth stances.

This doesn't really contradict their analysis, Some Sanders supporters =/= Never Hillary voters.

Just because some Sanders supporters are stupid and wretched enough to prefer Trump being elected does not mean that there isn't a separate cohort of people who voted for him because they hated Clinton.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 22nd 2019 at 3:51:01 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#272563: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:52:34 PM

What people claim on twitter and what actully happens aren’t always the same thing, I’d note that the analysis indicates that outside of Vermont most #Never Hillary voters weren’t Bernie supporters being bitter, they were Hillary opponents who wanted to vote against her twice because they disliked her just that much.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#272564: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:54:51 PM

What people claim on twitter and what actully happens aren’t always the same thing, I’d note that the analysis indicates that outside of Vermont most #Never Hillary voters weren’t Bernie supporters being bitter, they were Hillary opponents who wanted to vote against her twice because they disliked her just that much.

Well said.

Anyone who wants to dispute Five Thirty Eight's analysis should have some data of their own to serve as counterbalance, anecdotes aren't enough.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#272565: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:57:08 PM

Just to bring it back up, since I think my edit was lost in the shuffle, there's a Supreme Court case pending - Carpenter v. Murphy - that could drastically change the layout of the current Tribal boundaries in Oklahoma specifically and would likely have ripple effects beyond there.

And to give an idea just how odd this is, Oklahoma's case would add 5,000 square miles, including the city of Tulsa, to the reservation. The reason it's at the court is because Murphy was convicted in 2000 of a rather brutal murder of another Muscogee member, and the location of it may or may not have been within tribal boundaries (depending on which map is used). If it was, then the case would be thrown out in US courts because the US government would not have standing to act on a murder enacted within tribal grounds in which both parties are members of the tribe.

[down]

The inevitable downside is complex, though. First, you'd be kicking people out of their homes who had zero involvement in the thing to begin with - and while this might be a case of Call It Karma for outside observers, it would not engender goodwill here. Second, you've got a murderer getting Off on a Technicality, and while he could be retried by the Native American courts, that leads into the third point. Namely, how well-equipped are the Tribal offices and courts to deal with this kind of thing? Because as I mentioned on the previous page, there are a shitload of rape cases that happen on Tribal lands that are then referred to (and mostly declined by) the FBI because the tribal officers tend not to be the best equipped, and the FBI has more pressing matters to tend to. And the State governments aren't allowed to aid in the investigation, as it didn't happen within the State's boundaries. That's not a knock against the tribal police, it's just the same logistical issue you'd get if a small town had a crime committed that required a lot of forensic evidence be collected and analyzed, yet expected them to do it all internally - it'd amount to an Impossible Task for them.

Edited by ironballs16 on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:08:10 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#272566: Feb 22nd 2019 at 12:59:37 PM

I think that's a very good idea.

If for no reason that "for the first time, the government is giving land back to the Natives."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#272567: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:00:33 PM

[up][up][up]I wasn't disputing their analysis. I was just offering an anecdote for unrelated reasons.

Edited by Clarste on Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:01:11 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#272568: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:02:40 PM

I think they're rather unlikely to make a judgement that would have a city of 400,000 people outside of US law...

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#272569: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:02:50 PM

I wasn't disputing their analysis. I was just offering an anecdote for unrelated reasons.

Fair enough, my apologies.

Just to bring it back up, since I think my edit was lost in the shuffle, there's a Supreme Court case pending - Carpenter v. Murphy - that could drastically change the layout of the current Tribal boundaries in Oklahoma specifically and would likely have ripple effects beyond there.

And to give an idea just how odd this is, Oklahoma's case would add 5,000 square miles, including the city of Tulsa, to the reservation. The reason it's at the court is because Murphy was convicted in 2000 of a rather brutal murder of another Muscogee member, and the location of it may or may not have been within tribal boundaries (depending on which map is used). If it was, then the case would be thrown out in US courts because the US government would not have standing to act on a murder enacted within tribal grounds in which both parties are members of the tribe.

I'm cautiously supportive, Native Americans have been given a bad hand far too often in our past and present.

I think they're rather unlikely to make a judgement that would have a city of 400,000 people outside of US law...

This doesn't sound right, are you sure that Native American Nations are outside of US law?

I could've sworn that they like the states were subordinate to the Federal Government.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:12:04 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#272570: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:05:55 PM

Misread part of the reason for the case.

Still, changing the jurisdiction of Oklahoma's second largest city seems implausible.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272571: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:12:55 PM

Sorry, I should have said "support base", not "voter base". Of supporters on social media, Russian bots tend to post in disproportionate quantities to promote specific memes that advance the agenda of promoting Donald Trump or dividing the Democratic coalition.

Well, you probably shouldn't say that either.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#272572: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:14:37 PM

Oh, and two other things from the final entry in that Wiki page, emphasis added:

Oral Arguments were heard on November 27, 2018. Justice Neil Gorsuch did not participate in the Court’s review of this decision because of his earlier participation in a Tenth Circuit’s en banc rehearing of the case while he served as a judge on the Tenth Circuit.

Attorneys for Mike Carpenter, Oklahoma State Penitentiary Interim Warden, argued that Congress has clearly disestablished the Muscogee (Creek) Nation Reservation. Carpenter is backed by attorneys for the State of Oklahoma and the United States Solicitor General. Attorneys for Patrick Dwayne Murphy argued that there is no clear intention of Congress to disestablish the Muscogee (Creek) Nation Reservation. Murphy is backed by the National Congress of American Indians and other American Indian organizations.

The Justices raised concerns about the practicality of deciding that much of Oklahoma would be classified as an Indian Reservation, which would potentially affect the livelihood of 1.8 million residents.

So this could be a deadlock case, as Gorsuch recused himself, and it'd impact a massive amount of people.

Edited by ironballs16 on Feb 22nd 2019 at 4:20:04 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#272573: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:19:30 PM

I mean, yeah, it'd be a good idea to give Native Americans their land back, but this seems like the shittiest case possible in which to do that. As well as oddly abrupt.

Also, given what this case is actually determining, whether a crime was committed in US territory, I kind of doubt that any ruling will just automatically hand over land to anyone. I feel like there would have to be far more steps involved than this.

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#272574: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:19:41 PM

Crossposting with the Race thread:

Honestly when I read 'reparations' my mind immediately goes to Germany after world war 1,which is probably why it's bad idea to even name it that, people will feel like they're paying reparations for something they did wrong, the feeling of being punished unfairly breeds resentment, and resentment fuels tensions and existing prejudices

...Aaaaaaaaaand this is the whole problem with why progress against racism in America is so slow. One of the most common reactions by white people is "but I'm not racist!" What we see here is a common version of that: "just because my ancestors hurt your people doesn't mean I have any part in it!"

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#272575: Feb 22nd 2019 at 1:22:25 PM

[up]

Which is the rub - because that is true. It's the same as finding someone's grandchild guilty of theft because their grandfather had robbed a bank and hadn't been caught until 90 years later. Would it be "just" if the person got hit for the full amount despite having zero involvement? I'm not sure there's any precedent for it.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"

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